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We're making this alloy from UBC at a facility I'm a part owner of overseas. I would like to market this here in the U.S. but I'm having trouble identifying it's series.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/dV...=w1092-h606-no
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/4P...=w1198-h480-no
No offense, but you MAKE Aluminum alloys and you don't know what it is, how do you expect us to know?
I dont make them. I own a facility overseas that makes them. I'm not a scrapper or a metal enthusiast. Just business.Quote:
Originally Posted by AuburnEwaste
Yeah that alloy dosen't line up very well huh
My best guess is you have 6061 with low Ti and high Cr
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_alloy
A quick Google search shows that this is either a proprietary alloy, or not a very common one. Check this wikipedia page showing the percentages of various elements, it does not really match anything. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_alloy
What part of "the facility is overseas" don't you comprehend? Believe it or not, there are metallurgist overseas that have 0 concept of American trade names. Thanks for the input.Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralAluminum
Googled and checked that Wiki before I posted on here. Went on Matweb's database as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by AuburnEwaste
Our Manganese levels are considerably higher at 0.80-1.10%Quote:
Originally Posted by NHscrapman
Is this difference negligible or important?
Who is your plant selling to? That should give some insight into what the alloy is good for. Maybe you could then search the product literature for those buyers of your product.Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
Sorry that you had to get some disrespect here, but it does leave one scratching their head a bit. I have not been successful in business myself but I do my share of reading. Even Warren Buffett says that you should never invest in a business you do not understand. Good luck!
The manganese levels are high because it's UBC AL
they typically run around 1% manganese 1% magnesium.
It may matter to buyers but I cannot say for sure.
Not sure here but if the only things being put into the pots is cans then you have a can alloy...
South Asian traders are our primary customers. They buy it and ship it back to their countries, most of them are involved in the auto part manufacturing industry. This alloy however doesn't look like a die cast in terms of composition.Quote:
Originally Posted by HipoGear
The Si ( silicon ) content makes this a casting alloy.
The nearest alloy composition I could find is 1060 used in electrical, it is extruded. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1060_aluminium_alloy
1060 aluminium alloy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1060 aluminium alloy is an aluminium-based alloy in the "commercially pure" wrought family (1000 or 1xxx series). It is fundamentally very similar to 1050 aluminium alloy, with the difference coming down to 0.1% aluminium by weight. However, while both 1050 and 1060 are covered by the same ISO standard, they are covered by different ASTM standards.
As a wrought alloy, it is typically formed by extrusion or rolling. It is commonly used in the electrical and chemical industries, on account of having high electrical conductivity, corrosion resistance, and workability. It has low mechanical strength compared to more significantly alloyed metals. It can be strengthened by cold working, but not by heat treatment.[1]
Alternate designations include Al99.6 and A91060. It is described in the following standards:[2]
- ASTM B 209: Standard Specification for Aluminum and Aluminum-Alloy Sheet and Plate
- ASTM B 210: Standard Specification for Aluminum and Aluminum-Alloy Drawn Seamless Tubes
- ASTM B 211: Standard Specification for Aluminum and Aluminum-Alloy Bar, Rod, and Wire
- ASTM B 221: Standard Specification for Aluminum and Aluminum-Alloy Extruded Bars, Rods, Wire, Profiles, and Tubes
- ASTM B 483: Standard Specification for Aluminum and Aluminum-Alloy Drawn Tube and Pipe for General Purpose Applications
- ISO 6361: Wrought Aluminium and Aluminium Alloy Sheets, Strips and Plates
Chemical Composition
The alloy composition of 1060 aluminium is:[2]
Most likely the United States has different alloy requirements.Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
If this is All from drink cans, you should probably contact BALL metal, as they produce a large percentage of the Al cans used for drink production. They would be able to tell you what the exact alloy composition should be.
I think what most people find confusing is that while you state that you own this company, it doesn't seem like you understand the type of alloys your company is making. Did I misunderstand something? Do you really not understand the industry you take part in or who your buyers would be?
Understand your input material, it's origin, composition, contact those companies they deal in All as they would have the answers you are looking for, or end manufacturers such as BALL metal that produces Al cans for drinks.
Simple, logical, not sure I understand why this seems so difficult for you unless you are just a broker looking to sell a companies product in the US.
You should also realize that it is a very expensive proposition to refine Al, as it requires electrolytic refining using a specific mineral in it's molten state. If your Al was refined, it would be far easier to locate buyers. If the company you are having as broker for has the ability to also refine, you might have a lucrative and viable business in that you could send them Al scrap, have it refined and then sell to anyone in the world that uses Al. As a broker, you could easily make a g9d living if dealing with large quantities.
And in certain states, you can be paid to buy back Al cans, etc. And then sell the product to a company to refine, or have it refined yourself then selling the refined product to an end user.
I find it exceedingly difficult to imagine any situation where you might own a company overseas, that deals with Al alloy scrap and not understand your Al alloy well enough to understand your market. That makes absolutely no sense at all.
Alternatively, you could have your Al assayed, get a certificate as to the alloy composition and type, and then locate the proper market.
Regardless, there is something you are either not being honest about, or are utterly clueless about, that you have not expressed. Being honest is paramount if you honestly intend to do any business in the metal markets in the US. The laws are strict, and importing metals also very strict.
Scott
The company you claim to own, or be part owner of, sounds like it's just melting scrap metals of unknown alloys, which is scrap metal not a refined, end product. I saw in one of your other posts where you state Al sells for X amount, but you are selling your for a higher price because it's whatever alloy you are melting, and you seem to believe that since it's already alloyed in the specific way it's worth more.Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
First problem you have is that your metal is scrap, not, I repeat NOT a refined end product. Anytime you melt a particular metal, specially metals like Al, you have a loss of a certain percentage of related to specific metals in the alloy you are melting, that changes the alloy composition. Your alloy is not assayed nor certified, so all you have is scrap Al, with impurities that would require refining. Thus your alloy would not be valued as pure Al and certainly not a certified alloy. That means you can only ask for scrap value, and since the cost to refine is expensive, the price your recycled and melted alloy might bring would be of far less value.
I would suggest, buffering whatever metals are required to certify your Al alloy for US consumption. This can be expensive in and of itself.
Again, it disturbs me you claim to be part owner in this company, and have no clue as to these issues. You should have experienced these issues if selling certified alloys. Otherwise I can only assume your company has a melt furnace, and just throwing scrap in, to melt, and attempting to market this recycled Al with impurities as a certified alloy, ready to use.
Have you had this alloy properly assayed? After melting, you would notice % changes in the alloy composition. You should at least be using an XRF to check alloy composition prior to melting so that you might formulate the proper flux components, and after melting prior to sending off for proper assay and certification. It doesn't seem per your post that your recycling company has a proper metallurgist on the payroll.
Trying to sell your material as a proper alloy really amounts to criminal activity. As a refiner, I find this exceedingly distasteful.
And what is the name of your company?
Scott
I'm thinking company "A" prepares proprietary alloy recipe for company "B" who use the finished alloy or sell it to other companies and that the OP has taken notice of the amount being shipped from company "A" and that he has hopes of capitalising in other markets outside of Asia where patents may not apply.Quote:
Originally Posted by NobleMetalWorks
Like the man said he's a businessman and we all know these come in many flavours.
I am utterly baffled why you believe that someone who is a scrapper or metal enthusiast would be able to help you. If this is a real company in operation, why don't you have a metallurgist working with or for you to facilitate your intentions? Why have you not sought the proper method of preparing your Al alloy prior to attempting to find a buyer? Why have you not utilized the volumes of experience and knowledge you have access to using simply google searches?Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
As well, have you donated to this site? That at the very least seems like the proper thing to do, since you are part owner in this company and you must have some funds to invest in asking people for help. I'm not sure if you understand the value of the information you are requesting. I would expect you to either hire someone with the knowledge and experience, or pay them a consulting fee to help you realize your intent, or at the very least offer to pay them in some way.
We help each other on this site. As a business, I have donated to this site, I believe it only right considering the wealth of information at my fingertips or using a simple forum search. I would suggest you do the same if your intent is to use the information, that has real value to someone like you if what you have stated is in fact truth. You would stand to make a sizable profit, and that profit would be as a direct result of asking questions here and receiving valuable answers.
Just the information that has been freely given in this thread in regards to your question has value. For that information alone, even if you never glean any other useful information, you should donate something to this site so that it might increase it's financial independence and continue to provide a place for all those who have helped you, and those who contribute to the knowledge base of this site.
Considering how very little good solid information is floating around the internet, in this industry, free of charge. And considering that this is probably the single most important internet resource in regards to scrap metal, I would encourage you to make a reasonable donation to this site if your intent is to profit from the information you receive in regards to your questions.
I have owned several businesses, yet still I cannot fathom or reason you seemingly utter lack of understanding in regards to what you are asking. Or in your complete lack of knowledge as to how this industry works, specially since you live in the United States.
One more suggestion. You may benefit from contacting the US Embassy in the country of your companies origin. They have people on staff, who's sole intent is to help facilitate trade between the United States and other countries. They should be able to provide you with a wealth of information, as they have been trained and work to facilitate business with companies like the one you say you are part owner in. I spent many years in the international trade arena, and that's really what it is like an arena. I cannot even begin to express what an important resource the American Embassy can be in regards to international trade.
My comments might seem snarky, but I am asking them seriously as it really does shock me that you seem to have no knowledge about the industry your company is involved in. If anything I have said or suggested is outside what is actually true, then please state it and I will apologize, happily, in this thread. I tend to say exactly what I think and feel without reservation, my intent is not to insult but instead understand what seems to be incongruent to me in regards to your business and your questions.
Scott
As a business that deals in processing aluminum scrap, would it not be beneficial to yourself, those you both buy and sell product, to know how to accurately identify aluminum alloys, especially the most common?
Is it easy? Is it expensive? Do you need to?
Answers: All depends on methods you use, Not expensive compared to the possible grater financial returns you could expect with a positive identification method. Only you can answer do you need to!
XRF (X-Ray Fluorescence) Scanners start at $10k and higher, need some training and need periodic calibration. They have become the standard and basic tool in your type of business. I would think a "no-brainer". There are much less expensive acid based test kits available, these use a spot testing method and have been in use for many years. You could also send samples to a independent metal testing lab.
You might even want to do in house XRF and/or spot test kit and a independent lab that will utilize metallurgical testing procedures. Doing so will only add value to your product and open up new opportunities for your company.
Our stuff maxes out at 97% for Aluminium, it looks to be a 6000 series alloy like you mentioned earlier. Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by alloy2
They're a lot of angry people on here. It's amusing.
I know 0 about the technical details of alloys, etc.
I purchased a sizable stake in a small smelting operation last year, that was defunct before my cash injection. Why? Because I wanted too.
The facility is in a developing country, and is not some state of the art facility with 30+ employees and high tech equipment that you would find in an industrialized country like the US.
The guy in charge of overseeing the alloying knows 0 about American trade names or series, our Asian buyers know 0 about them either. For this particular alloy, they simply refer to it as AL95.
Why would I spend 10k on a XRF handheld when we clearly have a Spectro machine on site, that printed out the posted results? 10k so I can scan and have the exact North American trade name pop up? No thanks.
I want to market this stuff to American buyers because I want the security that comes with a contract, our current clientele are inconsistent, spot buyers, traders, not a good revenue base, and not a good way to sustain a business.
I can't market this stuff to an American audience calling it AL95 can I?
Many thanks for those who pointed me in the right direction.
I'm a back yard metal caster using aluminum as my primary metal, I use scrap aluminum from engine blocks and cylinder heads which is a nice alloy to work with probably because of the silicon content, anyhow I've learned much from researching the various aluminum alloys and the metals used to ally aluminum and what they do to enhance the metals quality’s.
aluMATTER*|*Aluminium*|*Wrought Aluminium Alloys*|*2xxx Series Alloys
2xxx series are high strength alloys.
The addition of copper as main alloying element (mostly range 3–6 wt%, but can be much higher), with or without magesium as alloying consituent (range 0–2 %), allows material strengthening by precipitation hardening, resulting in very strong alloys. Also the fatigue properties are very good for this series.
The presence of copper is however very bad for the corrosion resistance. Copper tends to precipitate at grain boundaries, making the metal very susceptible to pitting, intergranular corrosion and stress corrosion. These copper rich zones are more noble/cathodic than the surrounding aluminium matrix and act as preferred sites for corrosion through galvanic coupling. (learn more in the section on corrosion) Copper is also very bad for anodising.
Copper precipitates dissolve in the anodising electrolytes (acid electrolytes for porous film formation) leaving holes in the oxide, and solute copper migrates under the high electric field towards the aluminium/oxide interface compromising the anodic film properties.
Up to 12 wt% copper the strength of the alloy can increase through precipitation hardening, with or without the presence of Mg; Hardening is achieved through the precipitation of Al2Cu or Al2CuMg intermetallic phases during ageing which leads to strengths second only to the highest strength 7xxx series alloys.
Above 12 wt% Cu the alloy becomes brittle. Copper also improves the fatigue properties, the high-temperature properties and the machinability of the alloy. Lower copper content levels then in the conventional 2024 and 2014 type alloys are required for the automotive industry.
These alloys have sufficient formability, spot weldability and good corrosion resistance (as opposed to the higher copper containing alloys). The paint baking cycle in the automotive sheet application provides the precipitation treatment and imparts the final mechanical values.
The 2xxx series alloys are used for high strength structural applications such as aircraft fittings and wheels, military vehicles and bridges, forgings for trucks, etc. The low melting phase elements, lead and/or bismuth, facilitate machining of the 2xxx series alloys, making them also suitable for applications where hard extruded and machined parts are required (screws, bolts, fittings, machinery components, etc).
Vanadium, Zirconium and Titanium raise the recrystallisation temperature of copper containing alloys to retain their properties at elevated temperatures, fabricate readily and have good casting and welding behaviour.
Manganese has a substantial effect on the tensile properties of aluminium-copper-magnesium alloys. Tensile strength and yield strength increase with increases of manganese and magnesium levels. Manganese causes a loss in ductility, hence its content should be maximum 1 %. Mn also raises the recrystallisation temperature of copper containing alloys to retain their properties at elevated temperatures, fabricate readily and have good casting and welding behaviour.
Iron in aluminium-copper-magnesium alloy Al–4%Cu–0.5%Mg, even at very low levels of 0.5 % reduces the tensile properties in the heat-treated condition if there is an excess of iron that is not tied up by silicon in alpha-Fe-Si precipitates. This iron excess then forms Cu2FeAl7 constituents thereby reducing the amount of available copper for heat-treating effects.
Iron is added to aluminium-copper-nickel alloys to increase strength at elevated temperatures. The properties are due to the fine grain size.
Nickel improves strength and hardness in aluminium-copper-magnesium alloys at elevated temperatures although additions of about 0.5 % nickel lowers the tensile properties of heat-treated Al–4%Cu–0.5%Mg alloy at room temperature.
/
Nickel also reduces the coefficient of expansion.
Silver at trace level substantially increases the strength of heat-treated and aged aluminium-copper-magnesium alloys.
Cadmium is a relatively low-melting element. Up to 0.3 % Cd may be added to aluminium-copper alloys to accelerate the rate of age hardening, increase strength and corrosion resistance.
Indium is added in small amounts (0.05–0.2 %) to aluminium-copper alloys, particularly those of low copper content (2–3 % Cu). Indium reduces room temperature ageing and increases the effect of artificial ageing. When magnesium is present in the alloy, these effects are counteracted.
Small amounts of tin (0.05 %) greatly increase the artificial ageing response of aluminium-copper alloys following solution heat treatment. Higher strength results and also an improvement in corrosion resistance. This effect is counteracted by the presence of magnesium that probably forms a non-coherent second phase with tin. Higher concentrations of tin however cause hot cracking of aluminium-copper alloys.
Tin is also used in alloys for bearing applications requiring a high resistance to high speeds, loads and temperatures.
Copper, nickel and silicon together with tin improve the load-carrying capacity and wear resistance, and the soft tin phase provides antiscoring properties.
Lead is added to improve machinability of alloys such as in EN–AW 2011. Lead is like bismuth, tin and cadmium a low melting-point metal that with its restricted solubility in aluminium forms a soft, low-melting phase that promotes chip breaking and helps tool lubrication.
At present lead is however being restricted by law in automotive and electronic applications to a maximum of 0.4 % due to its toxicity. For example the EN–AW 6262 free-machining alloy with a 1–to–1 ratio of lead and bismuth needs to be replaced for these applications by a lower lead containing alloy.
More bismuth or tin are being added to this alternative alloy to compensate for the lower lead content.
I believe UBCs are typically a 3000 series. If you are remelting UBCs you would be best off making a 3000 series ingot and selling to a company that is going to make coil stock for BC manufacturing.
Modern cans are generally produced through a mechanical cold forming process that starts with punching a flat blank from very stiff cold-rolled sheet. This sheet is typically alloy 3104-H19 or 3004-H19, which is aluminum with about 1% manganese and 1% magnesium to give it strength and formability.
I cant see your origin post with the composition, can you try posting again or PM it to me.
AAInt - I disagree with you totally, with your statement, "there's a lot of angry people here". Just the opposite is true, there's a lot of helpful people here at SMF. That have provided you with good info, just on this one thread alone. Research utilizing the search button and you will find more useful info, with members consistently helping each other.
As for your facility being in a developing country and not a modern industrial complex with advance equipment and 30+ employees. I would say to that, most of the people on this sight are 1 or 2 person operations, with basic tools.
Your key is AL-95
there should be conversion charts somewhere like this one.
Comparison chart -- Aluminum/Aluminium: USA popular grades vs several overseas grades
not sure what to convert, so that parts up to you.
No, not angry at all. But when you take on a tone like you are entitled, deserving of the answers to the questions you have asked, without any contribution either monetary or informative, while at the same time admitting that you have absolutely no understanding about the industry you have stated you own a business in, it seems to me you are looking for someone to hold your hand and give you all the information you require, and yet acting a bit entitled at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
I was probably the most outspoken in regards to how you seem to be behaving. And I can tell you honestly that I am not, nor was I ever mad. That's silly. Being in business myself, and being a small operation that does not have the most advanced equipment nor 30+ employees I am very aware of just how important this online resource is to my business. Not only in the information that this site retains, but also in the business connections, and friendships I have made here. We help each other, but all your posts consists of one aspect of this forum, and that is you looking for people to answer all your questions, that's it. I see no reciprocation at all. You cannot expect someone to give you good solid advice when that also includes suggesting you should also be educated in your industry of choice, or seek help of those whom you might hire to represent you, or anything else that will help you. I firmly believe it's better to teach a man to fish, than to give him a fish. The give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for life is relevant.
Okay, thanks for stating that. But that also does not mean it's our fault, nor our responsibility to educate you in a business you bought into, and do not understand. Best thing you can do for yourself and your business, prior to attempting to sell anything, is to educate yourself on what it is you are doing. Not only on the alloys your company produces, but on best business practices, international trade, etc etc etc. You were given this information and advice free of any charge, and not forced to pay anything, even while behaving in a way that leads some to believe you have this feeling of entitlement. To be honest, and this is my own personal opinion, I cannot wrap my head around the fact you are attempting to conduct business in the metal industry without any knowledge at all. What are you going to tell a buyer about your material? How do you honestly think it will sound to a buyer if you tell them you know nothing about your own operation, or the alloys your company produces. Just because you have an aluminum product does not mean people will buy from you. And if you do not understand your own industry, do you really believe it will make them feel confident about any product you have for sale? You have nobody that knows about the alloys, no metallurgist, no technical staff that any customer can speak with. I wouldn't buy a product like that, not if the seller had no clue what it was, not if the person who was representing the sale had no clue about their industry, and specially if it was not properly certified, identified, assayed, etc. It is your lack of knowledge, your ignorance, that will prevent you from selling your Al alloy, not the alloy itself. You can take that however you want to take that, ignore it and excuse it as someone being mad, but that's good advice regardless if you want to accept it or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
I sell metals, many different types, that I produce myself, in my lab, without any employees helping me. I understand what I am selling down to the .001 percentages of metals that are associated but not worth removing for their intended purpose. I create alloys of specific metals for specific purposes, many times alloyed with more exotic metals or elements to give them a specific color, strength, flexibility, rigidity, etc. As a matter of fact, I am asked many times by my customers advice on how they might use, or what alloy would be best for whatever application they are using it for, and I need to be able to answer these things. Again, if you do not understand your industry, or specially the alloys you produce and wish to sell, then you are really just pissing into the wind and allowing it to spray all over you, and that on purpose. If you want to be successful, I would suggest you start conducting yourself in a way that projects that, and backing it up with understanding what it is you are selling, how it's made, what it's used for, how much you can produce and on, and etc.
A small smelting operation could be just a melt furnace running off propane, and one guy melting scrap. Think about what you are stating you wish to do. You want to command as high a price as possible for a recycled material your smelting operation has produced without proper assay, certification, knowledge on where it came from, what it is used for, etc. If you were a company in the United States which used a specific Al alloy to produce a particular part, or particular metal item would you purchase material for production, where your customers loyalty is specifically related to the quality of the product you are producing? It's been posted already how very important it is to understand your material intimately, and yet you label those who give up this hard won information as being mad, without any thanks at all to the information that has been provided to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
I am a one man shop, I started my business on my own, I bought all my own equipment much of which I had to design, and build myself. I do not have a state of the art facility, nor any other employee, AND I live, and operate my business in the United States. Just because we are in the United States does not mean we are operating large businesses. Yet I have educated myself, totally by myself, by reading, engaging other people in my industry, working the material myself, and seeking to educate myself in what it is I need to know in order to make my business a success. Most of the people you are speaking with on this forum, regardless of where in the world they come from, have done exactly the same thing as I have. Read some of the other posts and you quickly realize that we are a community of people who help each other, who freely give our time and knowledge much of which is proprietary so that we might help others. Or we read what others have posted, or post questions ourselves and then discuss these subjects in threads like this one. I might be beating a dead dog on this one, but you have not discussed anything much, you demand information, you lack tact or acceptance and contribute nothing of value to this forum. Perhaps you will in the future but thus far, every one of your posts has been about information you are looking for. Imagine if we all acted as you have, would you be here if that was the case?Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
If the guy making the alloys knows 0 about American trade names, or series, then why are you not giving this person whatever information that he needs in order to know? If you contact the American Embassy in the country of origin, as I have stated before, you will find not only a wealth of information they are willing to give you, for free, but people who know these things because their specific job function is to facilitate business between the United States and other nations. You should be assigning proper names to the material you produce, or at the very least relating them to some sort of standard. That just seems like bad business to me, it really does, I'm not mad just stating and pointing out what should be painfully obvious to you already. Stop playing a victim because you don't know, and do something about your situation, like learn about the business you keep stating you bought into. That should be a no brainer.Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
An XRF is not going to give you trade names, it scans the material using X-Rays, reads the isotopes, and then reports the values in percentages of the alloyed material. This would help you be identifying what scrap should be smelted/melted together, and what should not. It will help you verify your alloys prior to having them certified as meeting a specific standard or alloy composition. It seems to me you probably should have researched exactly what an XRF scanner is, prior to discounting it all together. To me that just seems like someone ignoring good advice, discounting it even while not understanding it at all, and then complaining that it was offered in the first place. Please don't forget, you are the one standing there with your hand open, offering nothing in return. That is good advice, again, take it or not but the advice was intended to help you, not hurt you.Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
That isn't a bad reason at all for wanting American buyers, however, you seem to also miss that most manufacturing, even metal, is done elsewhere and not in the United States anymore. Why not seek customers in China, which has a far larger market and it sounds like it might be closer to where the underdeveloped nation is, where your little smelting/melting operation exists. This means less shipping costs, far larger potential to sell your goods and you can draw up contracts that will require you to produce as specific amount of your alloy on a regular, ongoing bases. Just because you do business outside the United States, it does not mean you cannot find better markets in industrialized nations which might be a far better business relationship. And if I were you, I would hold your customers to a contract instead of conducting your business in the way you currently are. Contracts are used in business transactions all over the world, regardless if you consider those countries developed or not. Do you not realize that you can write a contract for literally anything, so long as you are complying with whatever laws you must in the country you are conducting business in? I used to buy and sell all kinds of things, all over the world, on a contract basis. Also, many contracts are for single sales, specially in the United States. Considering that metals fluctuate, sometimes drastically, nobody in the metal industry wants to be locked into a contract at any specific price. The price of Al could drop tomorrow, and probably will. Instead, they usually contract, if on an ongoing basis, referring to specific spot prices. This is why it is important to know what your profit margin needs to be in order to make your business a success. Do you not realize that Al is dropping in price all the time, over the past 5 years in fact? Please refer to this 5 year chart on Al prices:Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
Kitco - Spot Aluminum Historical Charts and Graphs - Aluminum charts - Industrial metals
Even over the short term, refer to these prices:
Kitco - Spot Aluminum Historical Charts and Graphs - Aluminum charts - Industrial metals
Nobody in their right mind is going to contract for the purchase of a metal product that fluctuates as much as Al does, for any length of time, for any set price. But they might if your pricing is related to the current spot price. It would be exceedingly stupid on their part. Can you understand why I am pointing out the obvious flaws in your business model, the one you proposed in this thread? These are points that should be intuitive to you, that you should know intimately and yet do not. I am left wondering if you really own any part of a smelting operation, or if you really believe you can conduct business in the way you have proposed, while remaining utterly ignorant to the metal industry in the United States, the prices that your metal sell for, the current 5 year trend which is moving downward. Seriously, you should have known these things before investing in your smelting operation, it might have prevented you from investing in a metal business that is currently on a downhill trend so far as value is concerned.
And I have to ask, do you know what your currently profit margin is? Your labor percentages? What value you might be taking away or adding by not ensuring your metal is a specific standard? These questions and many more you should already know and be aware of if you expect to sell your product and make any profit. For example, you should know what it costs in time, labor, electricity, materials etc to melt a specific amount of a specific type of metal or alloy, and then you should have a min markup that relates to those expenses and a projected profit percentage you need to make in order to re-invest and expand your business, or retain those monetary assets for other reasons. You just seem to be seeking the highest price someone might pay for your material, but do you know for a fact that covers all your costs? If not, then you could be loosing money by selling even at the highest prices, if the cost of your scrap material, or the cost to produce it in whatever form your customer requests, is more than what you can sell for, then you are screwed but you should know this long before purchasing, because your profit exists in what price you are purchasing the material for. I set a standard, I will not pay over a specific percentage for the material I process because I know that I will make enough to cover my costs and make a decent/fair profit.
You can sell it as scrap Al, and no worries. You might even end up making more not incurring any cost, and selling the material right to the end user who might also have the equipment to refine it, as Al scrap. You should seriously consider this.Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
It's nice of you to thank people, but maybe you can contribute information also that we might not have, or something useful/helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
Scott
Met with a major buyer today, they said they would take us on as a supplier but we would have to do 2 things:
1. Reduce our Fe concentration to 0.4 (currently at 0.8)
2. Make sows instead of ingot.
- How can I reduce Fe content without high tech machinery?
- How much can I expect to pay for a 1000lbs sow mould? Is there a place that sells them used?
If your metallurgist is not already adding iron to your melt picking up stray iron, have your smelter manager check the furnace refractory and holding cells along with runners for cracks that may allow the molten aluminium to come into contact with iron.Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
Aluminium in its molten state becomes a solvent.
Metallurgy of aluminum is way beyond my scope of education, if your smelter metallurgist is unable to adjust the chemistry to suit the new contract I would strongly suggest you hire another who has the ability to do so..
Accurate, Durable and Fast Alloy Identification with Handheld LIBS
Removing metal inclusions in a casting line
Aluminium International, Aluminium International Today
Used Sows, https://www.dykast.com/products/used-sow-molds/2713
Yeah, the reality is I may not have access to the best metallurgists where my facility is. I will relay your suggestions to my guy, hopefully it helps.
The UBC alloys used to make soda cans typically contain <%1.0 Fe, is this Fe released when the cans are melted?
I had called Dykast before posting, I was hoping for a second opinion price wise. The quotes I got from them for used molds were pricey. I'll need 15-20 molds initially, perhaps I can find them in Asia(Japan) for less??
Which method to use to reduce the percentage of Fe is dependent upon other factors, such as how much do you need to reduce Fe percentages? If it's not a lot, you might add more Al in your melts, pure Al ,or Al and some of the other metals that make up the alloy. I was referring to that in another post I made on this thread, you should have seen that.Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
Al molds are generally speaking, fairly inexpensive. But for a 1000 lb, mold you are going to need not only support for the mold, but also a system that keeps the mold hot as you are pouring, so that you get an even pour, otherwise you will have rippling or stacking across the face of the pour that will ruin your casting. If I were you, I would hire a proper consultant, perhaps a process engineer with experience in Al refining and pouring. What you don't want to do is take on a considerable debt for equipment you believe will work, and then realize you need twice as much just for the rest of the equipment you didn't realize you were going to need.
You would probably do better to do as I suggested in one of the other posts, instead of spending the money to tool up, why not just sell as Al scrap, you will probably make more in the end as the equipment for this type of thing can be very expensive alone. You should also do a proper cost/benefit analysis if you are talking about large quantities. The bigger the deal, the more dramatic effect a small little issue will cause.
Your customer is going to want to see consistency, so they should be testing your material on a regular basis. That means you can't just have some guy throwing extra Al scrap into a melt furnace, it has to be the right quality, and the correct amount. You could try it, creating this alloy by hand. But it is never consistent and the variance will be noticeable that any metallurgist who is worth their pay, will see the differences in the metal from one part of the molding Al to another, and from one mold piece to another. That variance can only be caused by a few things, either it is being guessed at by hand, the furnace is decomposing and adding iron which means old equipment, old iron crucible that is deteriorating, and a few other reasons, in any case your buyer will not realize consistency in the alloy, and that will cause them to eventually dump you as everyone who buys a product wants the very best for as little as possible, they eventually will find someone more consistent. So whatever solution you choose, you should choose one that enables you to produce a consistent product on a regular ongoing basis.
You are talking about a substantial investment, you really should hire a proper consultant. You might want do a quick and dirty cost/benefit analysis so that you can compare selling the material as Al scrap, or paying the 100s of thousands of dollars, putting in the production equipment, hiring the right employees, extra insurance costs associated with heavy duty process equipment which can be very dangerous. And many other things. Many times you will realize a greater profit, bottom line, doing the most simple of things. It's not how much you can sell the alloy for, it's the difference between the cost, and what you sell it for that matters.
Scott
As stated by NobleMetalWorks you may be able to adjust the Fe content with the addition of virgin aluminum, it maybe possible that a fluxing agent will accomplish the same task without the additional cost of purchasing virgin material.Quote:
Originally Posted by AAInt
Aluminium Flux Guide
I would think that a good manufactured SOW would have some nickel in the alloy used, just saying that my experience with offshore machine castings has not been a great experience.
Do your homework before purchasing.
AAInt.
Have you got pictures of your foundry and setup? The general area you are in and what workers make up your workforce?
A picture can paint a thousand words and we love pictures here.
You are getting some great advice from other members here.
There's not much info that I can offer as the quality of the info you are getting is far above what I know.
And I have done a lot of work with Aluminium..... And I have probably learnt more in the last fifteen minutes than I knew beforehand.
I'd rather not post photos on here. I would be beyond pissed off if the photos I post on here end up on some B2B scammers den with someone portraying the photos as pictures of their own facility.
I've been in talks to sell our ingot as scrap, because it is technically scrap. The issue I've been encountering with buyers is payment terms. This is, from a business standpoint, an international transaction, I would like use a L/C to eliminate the risk, whereas buyers are telling me to spend thousands to ship hundreds of thousands worth of ingot here to the U.S., pay to truck it to their facility, let them weight it, then issue payment, all on some verbal honor system, that they will not renege or lower their asking price once I have 20 containers of ingot here in the U.S. that I need to off load.
In short, I'm having issues finding serious buyers.
Seems like u need to stop buying cans to remelt and start buying different aluminum scrap. One with less ferrous content. Something like clean aluminum solids or extruded scrap. I'm no expert at all. I just figured I would throw my two cents in the ring before u lose you're customer.