Aluminum Alloy Identification... - Page 2

They're a lot of angry people on here. It's amusing.

I know 0 about the technical details of alloys, etc.

I purchased a sizable stake in a small smelting operation last year, that was defunct before my cash injection. Why? Because I wanted too.

The facility is in a developing country, and is not some state of the art facility with 30+ employees and high tech equipment that you would find in an industrialized country like the US.



The guy in charge of overseeing the alloying knows 0 about American trade names or series, our Asian buyers know 0 about them either. For this particular alloy, they simply refer to it as AL95.

Why would I spend 10k on a XRF handheld when we clearly have a Spectro machine on site, that printed out the posted results? 10k so I can scan and have the exact North American trade name pop up? No thanks.

I want to market this stuff to American buyers because I want the security that comes with a contract, our current clientele are inconsistent, spot buyers, traders, not a good revenue base, and not a good way to sustain a business.

I can't market this stuff to an American audience calling it AL95 can I?

Many thanks for those who pointed me in the right direction.

I believe UBCs are typically a 3000 series. If you are remelting UBCs you would be best off making a 3000 series ingot and selling to a company that is going to make coil stock for BC manufacturing.

Modern cans are generally produced through a mechanical cold forming process that starts with punching a flat blank from very stiff cold-rolled sheet. This sheet is typically alloy 3104-H19 or 3004-H19, which is aluminum with about 1% manganese and 1% magnesium to give it strength and formability.

I cant see your origin post with the composition, can you try posting again or PM it to me.

Your key is AL-95
there should be conversion charts somewhere like this one.
Comparison chart -- Aluminum/Aluminium: USA popular grades vs several overseas grades
not sure what to convert, so that parts up to you.

Originally Posted by AAInt

They're a lot of angry people on here. It's amusing.

No, not angry at all. But when you take on a tone like you are entitled, deserving of the answers to the questions you have asked, without any contribution either monetary or informative, while at the same time admitting that you have absolutely no understanding about the industry you have stated you own a business in, it seems to me you are looking for someone to hold your hand and give you all the information you require, and yet acting a bit entitled at the same time.

I was probably the most outspoken in regards to how you seem to be behaving. And I can tell you honestly that I am not, nor was I ever mad. That's silly. Being in business myself, and being a small operation that does not have the most advanced equipment nor 30+ employees I am very aware of just how important this online resource is to my business. Not only in the information that this site retains, but also in the business connections, and friendships I have made here. We help each other, but all your posts consists of one aspect of this forum, and that is you looking for people to answer all your questions, that's it. I see no reciprocation at all. You cannot expect someone to give you good solid advice when that also includes suggesting you should also be educated in your industry of choice, or seek help of those whom you might hire to represent you, or anything else that will help you. I firmly believe it's better to teach a man to fish, than to give him a fish. The give a man a fish and he eats for a day, teach a man to fish and he will eat for life is relevant.

Originally Posted by AAInt

I know 0 about the technical details of alloys, etc.

Okay, thanks for stating that. But that also does not mean it's our fault, nor our responsibility to educate you in a business you bought into, and do not understand. Best thing you can do for yourself and your business, prior to attempting to sell anything, is to educate yourself on what it is you are doing. Not only on the alloys your company produces, but on best business practices, international trade, etc etc etc. You were given this information and advice free of any charge, and not forced to pay anything, even while behaving in a way that leads some to believe you have this feeling of entitlement. To be honest, and this is my own personal opinion, I cannot wrap my head around the fact you are attempting to conduct business in the metal industry without any knowledge at all. What are you going to tell a buyer about your material? How do you honestly think it will sound to a buyer if you tell them you know nothing about your own operation, or the alloys your company produces. Just because you have an aluminum product does not mean people will buy from you. And if you do not understand your own industry, do you really believe it will make them feel confident about any product you have for sale? You have nobody that knows about the alloys, no metallurgist, no technical staff that any customer can speak with. I wouldn't buy a product like that, not if the seller had no clue what it was, not if the person who was representing the sale had no clue about their industry, and specially if it was not properly certified, identified, assayed, etc. It is your lack of knowledge, your ignorance, that will prevent you from selling your Al alloy, not the alloy itself. You can take that however you want to take that, ignore it and excuse it as someone being mad, but that's good advice regardless if you want to accept it or not.

I sell metals, many different types, that I produce myself, in my lab, without any employees helping me. I understand what I am selling down to the .001 percentages of metals that are associated but not worth removing for their intended purpose. I create alloys of specific metals for specific purposes, many times alloyed with more exotic metals or elements to give them a specific color, strength, flexibility, rigidity, etc. As a matter of fact, I am asked many times by my customers advice on how they might use, or what alloy would be best for whatever application they are using it for, and I need to be able to answer these things. Again, if you do not understand your industry, or specially the alloys you produce and wish to sell, then you are really just pissing into the wind and allowing it to spray all over you, and that on purpose. If you want to be successful, I would suggest you start conducting yourself in a way that projects that, and backing it up with understanding what it is you are selling, how it's made, what it's used for, how much you can produce and on, and etc.

Originally Posted by AAInt

I purchased a sizable stake in a small smelting operation last year, that was defunct before my cash injection. Why? Because I wanted too.

A small smelting operation could be just a melt furnace running off propane, and one guy melting scrap. Think about what you are stating you wish to do. You want to command as high a price as possible for a recycled material your smelting operation has produced without proper assay, certification, knowledge on where it came from, what it is used for, etc. If you were a company in the United States which used a specific Al alloy to produce a particular part, or particular metal item would you purchase material for production, where your customers loyalty is specifically related to the quality of the product you are producing? It's been posted already how very important it is to understand your material intimately, and yet you label those who give up this hard won information as being mad, without any thanks at all to the information that has been provided to you.

Originally Posted by AAInt

The facility is in a developing country, and is not some state of the art facility with 30+ employees and high tech equipment that you would find in an industrialized country like the US.

I am a one man shop, I started my business on my own, I bought all my own equipment much of which I had to design, and build myself. I do not have a state of the art facility, nor any other employee, AND I live, and operate my business in the United States. Just because we are in the United States does not mean we are operating large businesses. Yet I have educated myself, totally by myself, by reading, engaging other people in my industry, working the material myself, and seeking to educate myself in what it is I need to know in order to make my business a success. Most of the people you are speaking with on this forum, regardless of where in the world they come from, have done exactly the same thing as I have. Read some of the other posts and you quickly realize that we are a community of people who help each other, who freely give our time and knowledge much of which is proprietary so that we might help others. Or we read what others have posted, or post questions ourselves and then discuss these subjects in threads like this one. I might be beating a dead dog on this one, but you have not discussed anything much, you demand information, you lack tact or acceptance and contribute nothing of value to this forum. Perhaps you will in the future but thus far, every one of your posts has been about information you are looking for. Imagine if we all acted as you have, would you be here if that was the case?

Originally Posted by AAInt

The guy in charge of overseeing the alloying knows 0 about American trade names or series, our Asian buyers know 0 about them either. For this particular alloy, they simply refer to it as AL95.

If the guy making the alloys knows 0 about American trade names, or series, then why are you not giving this person whatever information that he needs in order to know? If you contact the American Embassy in the country of origin, as I have stated before, you will find not only a wealth of information they are willing to give you, for free, but people who know these things because their specific job function is to facilitate business between the United States and other nations. You should be assigning proper names to the material you produce, or at the very least relating them to some sort of standard. That just seems like bad business to me, it really does, I'm not mad just stating and pointing out what should be painfully obvious to you already. Stop playing a victim because you don't know, and do something about your situation, like learn about the business you keep stating you bought into. That should be a no brainer.

Originally Posted by AAInt

Why would I spend 10k on a XRF handheld when we clearly have a Spectro machine on site, that printed out the posted results? 10k so I can scan and have the exact North American trade name pop up? No thanks.

An XRF is not going to give you trade names, it scans the material using X-Rays, reads the isotopes, and then reports the values in percentages of the alloyed material. This would help you be identifying what scrap should be smelted/melted together, and what should not. It will help you verify your alloys prior to having them certified as meeting a specific standard or alloy composition. It seems to me you probably should have researched exactly what an XRF scanner is, prior to discounting it all together. To me that just seems like someone ignoring good advice, discounting it even while not understanding it at all, and then complaining that it was offered in the first place. Please don't forget, you are the one standing there with your hand open, offering nothing in return. That is good advice, again, take it or not but the advice was intended to help you, not hurt you.

Originally Posted by AAInt

I want to market this stuff to American buyers because I want the security that comes with a contract, our current clientele are inconsistent, spot buyers, traders, not a good revenue base, and not a good way to sustain a business.

That isn't a bad reason at all for wanting American buyers, however, you seem to also miss that most manufacturing, even metal, is done elsewhere and not in the United States anymore. Why not seek customers in China, which has a far larger market and it sounds like it might be closer to where the underdeveloped nation is, where your little smelting/melting operation exists. This means less shipping costs, far larger potential to sell your goods and you can draw up contracts that will require you to produce as specific amount of your alloy on a regular, ongoing bases. Just because you do business outside the United States, it does not mean you cannot find better markets in industrialized nations which might be a far better business relationship. And if I were you, I would hold your customers to a contract instead of conducting your business in the way you currently are. Contracts are used in business transactions all over the world, regardless if you consider those countries developed or not. Do you not realize that you can write a contract for literally anything, so long as you are complying with whatever laws you must in the country you are conducting business in? I used to buy and sell all kinds of things, all over the world, on a contract basis. Also, many contracts are for single sales, specially in the United States. Considering that metals fluctuate, sometimes drastically, nobody in the metal industry wants to be locked into a contract at any specific price. The price of Al could drop tomorrow, and probably will. Instead, they usually contract, if on an ongoing basis, referring to specific spot prices. This is why it is important to know what your profit margin needs to be in order to make your business a success. Do you not realize that Al is dropping in price all the time, over the past 5 years in fact? Please refer to this 5 year chart on Al prices:

Kitco - Spot Aluminum Historical Charts and Graphs - Aluminum charts - Industrial metals

Even over the short term, refer to these prices:

Kitco - Spot Aluminum Historical Charts and Graphs - Aluminum charts - Industrial metals

Nobody in their right mind is going to contract for the purchase of a metal product that fluctuates as much as Al does, for any length of time, for any set price. But they might if your pricing is related to the current spot price. It would be exceedingly stupid on their part. Can you understand why I am pointing out the obvious flaws in your business model, the one you proposed in this thread? These are points that should be intuitive to you, that you should know intimately and yet do not. I am left wondering if you really own any part of a smelting operation, or if you really believe you can conduct business in the way you have proposed, while remaining utterly ignorant to the metal industry in the United States, the prices that your metal sell for, the current 5 year trend which is moving downward. Seriously, you should have known these things before investing in your smelting operation, it might have prevented you from investing in a metal business that is currently on a downhill trend so far as value is concerned.

And I have to ask, do you know what your currently profit margin is? Your labor percentages? What value you might be taking away or adding by not ensuring your metal is a specific standard? These questions and many more you should already know and be aware of if you expect to sell your product and make any profit. For example, you should know what it costs in time, labor, electricity, materials etc to melt a specific amount of a specific type of metal or alloy, and then you should have a min markup that relates to those expenses and a projected profit percentage you need to make in order to re-invest and expand your business, or retain those monetary assets for other reasons. You just seem to be seeking the highest price someone might pay for your material, but do you know for a fact that covers all your costs? If not, then you could be loosing money by selling even at the highest prices, if the cost of your scrap material, or the cost to produce it in whatever form your customer requests, is more than what you can sell for, then you are screwed but you should know this long before purchasing, because your profit exists in what price you are purchasing the material for. I set a standard, I will not pay over a specific percentage for the material I process because I know that I will make enough to cover my costs and make a decent/fair profit.

Originally Posted by AAInt

I can't market this stuff to an American audience calling it AL95 can I?

You can sell it as scrap Al, and no worries. You might even end up making more not incurring any cost, and selling the material right to the end user who might also have the equipment to refine it, as Al scrap. You should seriously consider this.

Originally Posted by AAInt

Many thanks for those who pointed me in the right direction.

It's nice of you to thank people, but maybe you can contribute information also that we might not have, or something useful/helpful.


Scott

Originally Posted by AAInt

Met with a major buyer today, they said they would take us on as a supplier but we would have to do 2 things:
1. Reduce our Fe concentration to 0.4 (currently at 0.8)
2. Make sows instead of ingot.

- How can I reduce Fe content without high tech machinery?
- How much can I expect to pay for a 1000lbs sow mould? Is there a place that sells them used?

If your metallurgist is not already adding iron to your melt picking up stray iron, have your smelter manager check the furnace refractory and holding cells along with runners for cracks that may allow the molten aluminium to come into contact with iron.

Aluminium in its molten state becomes a solvent.

Metallurgy of aluminum is way beyond my scope of education, if your smelter metallurgist is unable to adjust the chemistry to suit the new contract I would strongly suggest you hire another who has the ability to do so..

Accurate, Durable and Fast Alloy Identification with Handheld LIBS

Removing metal inclusions in a casting line


Aluminium International, Aluminium International Today

Used Sows, https://www.dykast.com/products/used-sow-molds/2713

Originally Posted by AAInt

Met with a major buyer today, they said they would take us on as a supplier but we would have to do 2 things:
1. Reduce our Fe concentration to 0.4 (currently at 0.8)
2. Make sows instead of ingot.

- How can I reduce Fe content without high tech machinery?
- How much can I expect to pay for a 1000lbs sow mould? Is there a place that sells them used?

Which method to use to reduce the percentage of Fe is dependent upon other factors, such as how much do you need to reduce Fe percentages? If it's not a lot, you might add more Al in your melts, pure Al ,or Al and some of the other metals that make up the alloy. I was referring to that in another post I made on this thread, you should have seen that.

Al molds are generally speaking, fairly inexpensive. But for a 1000 lb, mold you are going to need not only support for the mold, but also a system that keeps the mold hot as you are pouring, so that you get an even pour, otherwise you will have rippling or stacking across the face of the pour that will ruin your casting. If I were you, I would hire a proper consultant, perhaps a process engineer with experience in Al refining and pouring. What you don't want to do is take on a considerable debt for equipment you believe will work, and then realize you need twice as much just for the rest of the equipment you didn't realize you were going to need.

You would probably do better to do as I suggested in one of the other posts, instead of spending the money to tool up, why not just sell as Al scrap, you will probably make more in the end as the equipment for this type of thing can be very expensive alone. You should also do a proper cost/benefit analysis if you are talking about large quantities. The bigger the deal, the more dramatic effect a small little issue will cause.

Your customer is going to want to see consistency, so they should be testing your material on a regular basis. That means you can't just have some guy throwing extra Al scrap into a melt furnace, it has to be the right quality, and the correct amount. You could try it, creating this alloy by hand. But it is never consistent and the variance will be noticeable that any metallurgist who is worth their pay, will see the differences in the metal from one part of the molding Al to another, and from one mold piece to another. That variance can only be caused by a few things, either it is being guessed at by hand, the furnace is decomposing and adding iron which means old equipment, old iron crucible that is deteriorating, and a few other reasons, in any case your buyer will not realize consistency in the alloy, and that will cause them to eventually dump you as everyone who buys a product wants the very best for as little as possible, they eventually will find someone more consistent. So whatever solution you choose, you should choose one that enables you to produce a consistent product on a regular ongoing basis.

You are talking about a substantial investment, you really should hire a proper consultant. You might want do a quick and dirty cost/benefit analysis so that you can compare selling the material as Al scrap, or paying the 100s of thousands of dollars, putting in the production equipment, hiring the right employees, extra insurance costs associated with heavy duty process equipment which can be very dangerous. And many other things. Many times you will realize a greater profit, bottom line, doing the most simple of things. It's not how much you can sell the alloy for, it's the difference between the cost, and what you sell it for that matters.

Scott

Originally Posted by AAInt

Yeah, the reality is I may not have access to the best metallurgists where my facility is. I will relay your suggestions to my guy, hopefully it helps.
The UBC alloys used to make soda cans typically contain <%1.0 Fe, is this Fe released when the cans are melted?

I had called Dykast before posting, I was hoping for a second opinion price wise. The quotes I got from them for used molds were pricey. I'll need 15-20 molds initially, perhaps I can find them in Asia(Japan) for less??

As stated by NobleMetalWorks you may be able to adjust the Fe content with the addition of virgin aluminum, it maybe possible that a fluxing agent will accomplish the same task without the additional cost of purchasing virgin material.

Aluminium Flux Guide

I would think that a good manufactured SOW would have some nickel in the alloy used, just saying that my experience with offshore machine castings has not been a great experience.

Do your homework before purchasing.

I've been in talks to sell our ingot as scrap, because it is technically scrap. The issue I've been encountering with buyers is payment terms. This is, from a business standpoint, an international transaction, I would like use a L/C to eliminate the risk, whereas buyers are telling me to spend thousands to ship hundreds of thousands worth of ingot here to the U.S., pay to truck it to their facility, let them weight it, then issue payment, all on some verbal honor system, that they will not renege or lower their asking price once I have 20 containers of ingot here in the U.S. that I need to off load.

In short, I'm having issues finding serious buyers.