Gold prices dropping

90% of the stores most people shop at are corporate run, the person running the register has no authority to take gold as payment. If you are known to be wealthy in your community it doesn't matter what your wealth is, people will give you credit and work around your "craziness" since they know they will get paid. Come to my neighborhood where nobody knows you and you will have a hard time cashing gold in other then those gold for cash places. Keeping all your wealth in a commodity that is way over normal levels is just stupid, just as stupid as putting it all into one stock.



What gives anybody the idea that a piece of paper backed with gold is better then a piece of paper backed by nothing then the government issuing it? Do you think that the US government ever had enough gold and silver to cash out everyones paper money before 1932? You can make a $1 silver coin as small as you want, hell it doesn't even have to be all silver (ask a Roman soldier 2000 years ago how silver and gold backed currency works for the little guy). When it comes down to it the US paper money is backed by the US economy and the US army, if you want to trade goods with this country you will deal in Dollars or nothing. When both the economy and the army falls apart your gold will be worth less then my lead if you know what I mean. Also the government can grab all your gold whenever they want to, make it illegal to own or trade in, something they can't do with fiat money.

Originally Posted by unknownk

90% of the stores most people shop at are corporate run, the person running the register has no authority to take gold as payment. If you are known to be wealthy in your community it doesn't matter what your wealth is, people will give you credit and work around your "craziness" since they know they will get paid. Come to my neighborhood where nobody knows you and you will have a hard time cashing gold in other then those gold for cash places. Keeping all your wealth in a commodity that is way over normal levels is just stupid, just as stupid as putting it all into one stock.

What gives anybody the idea that a piece of paper backed with gold is better then a piece of paper backed by nothing then the government issuing it? Do you think that the US government ever had enough gold and silver to cash out everyones paper money before 1932? You can make a $1 silver coin as small as you want, hell it doesn't even have to be all silver (ask a Roman soldier 2000 years ago how silver and gold backed currency works for the little guy). When it comes down to it the US paper money is backed by the US economy and the US army, if you want to trade goods with this country you will deal in Dollars or nothing. When both the economy and the army falls apart your gold will be worth less then my lead if you know what I mean. Also the government can grab all your gold whenever they want to, make it illegal to own or trade in, something they can't do with fiat money.

I'm sorry, I still have to disagree with you.

Not only do I go out of my way, regardless if I am spending cash or spending a precious metal, to do business with the small business owner rather than corporations, if I am able. I don't support the corporate mentality that is only morally obligated to their stock holders, and not humans.

All through history, the only thing that has ever been readily accepted as a means of trading value, has been precious metals. It was first commodities like olive oil for example, and animals, but as people started to travel longer distances they needed to be able to exchange their commodities into a different commodity that was recognized and readily accepted by other people they wished to trade with regardless of where in the world they were located, what language they spoke, etc. It has been the longest standing and most stable form of monetary exchange the world has ever known, ever.

I also would debate what you base the dollars value on. If you follow what our economy is based on, it boils down to oil, we are an oil based economy period. Oil is what affects prices, oil determines the cost of trade, it's oil more than anything else that our monetary system is built on. If we were to take a country like Brazil, their economy is based on food production, which while being different is just as volatile. Considering we have already achieved peak oil, meaning we have plenty of oil in the ground by cannot pump it out of the ground fast enough to supply the demand, where do you think the value of the dollar is going to go? We hit a wall where we cannot produce anymore oil than we already are, no growth, which is exactly what our form of economy relies on for it's continued healthy existence.

In dealing in international trade, I came to realize regardless of what people may think, that commodities and goods are exchanged for not only the all mighty dollar, but also the Euro, and the HK Dollar as it's called as well as other currencies. But it really doesn't matter, it's all electronically transferred and really just amounts to numbers in a database on a computer system somewhere.

So if the world goes to crap tomorrow, everyone will still know what gold is, and recognize it as having an intrinsic value, and will deal with you based on their ability to in turn trade it for what they need, after all that's the entire point of any currency.

And what makes you think the Government cannot grab your money? What leads you to believe that the numbers you have saved in the bank are safe from the Government? Literally, each time you sign a signature card, or anytime you have signed for a loan, a credit card, anything to do with any banking institution like a home loan, car, etc, if you read the fine print what it states is that you are agreeing to pay back our national debt. This is called "Federal Tax", in fact the way the Federal Government is able to circumvent laws that were put into place to prevent exactly this situation. Since the Federal Reserve, which is owned by private entities, loans money to the US Government so it can operate, and since it also "federally" insures money on deposit at banks, you really have no say. So let me enlighten you to a scenario I have given a lot of thought to, and which bothers me a great deal. If our Government defaults paying interest to the Federal Reserve, that "we the people" owe due to our signing for a loan or bank account, the Federal Reserve could potentially confiscate funds in bank accounts to cover our governments debt. Just exactly the way gold was confiscated in 1933, and can replace the value of that money with whatever they desire. In 1933 it was paper money, with no real value. There is no law that exists that specifically prevents an action like this taking place.

But if our government doesn't know I have gold, or where I have it, I can take my gold, silver or whatever other precious metals, and leave this country before it's taken away from me and establish a life elsewhere. Try to do that with American Dollars.

I understand your arguments, and under certain conditions they might have merit. I am not expert, nor an economist, I just know people who are and have listened to what they say and even asked advice from time to time.

Originally Posted by NobleMetalWorks

I'm sorry, I still have to disagree with you.

Not only do I go out of my way, regardless if I am spending cash or spending a precious metal, to do business with the small business owner rather than corporations, if I am able. I don't support the corporate mentality that is only morally obligated to their stock holders, and not humans.

All through history, the only thing that has ever been readily accepted as a means of trading value, has been precious metals. It was first commodities like olive oil for example, and animals, but as people started to travel longer distances they needed to be able to exchange their commodities into a different commodity that was recognized and readily accepted by other people they wished to trade with regardless of where in the world they were located, what language they spoke, etc. It has been the longest standing and most stable form of monetary exchange the world has ever known, ever.

I also would debate what you base the dollars value on. If you follow what our economy is based on, it boils down to oil, we are an oil based economy period. Oil is what affects prices, oil determines the cost of trade, it's oil more than anything else that our monetary system is built on. If we were to take a country like Brazil, their economy is based on food production, which while being different is just as volatile. Considering we have already achieved peak oil, meaning we have plenty of oil in the ground by cannot pump it out of the ground fast enough to supply the demand, where do you think the value of the dollar is going to go? We hit a wall where we cannot produce anymore oil than we already are, no growth, which is exactly what our form of economy relies on for it's continued healthy existence.

In dealing in international trade, I came to realize regardless of what people may think, that commodities and goods are exchanged for not only the all mighty dollar, but also the Euro, and the HK Dollar as it's called as well as other currencies. But it really doesn't matter, it's all electronically transferred and really just amounts to numbers in a database on a computer system somewhere.

So if the world goes to crap tomorrow, everyone will still know what gold is, and recognize it as having an intrinsic value, and will deal with you based on their ability to in turn trade it for what they need, after all that's the entire point of any currency.

And what makes you think the Government cannot grab your money? What leads you to believe that the numbers you have saved in the bank are safe from the Government? Literally, each time you sign a signature card, or anytime you have signed for a loan, a credit card, anything to do with any banking institution like a home loan, car, etc, if you read the fine print what it states is that you are agreeing to pay back our national debt. This is called "Federal Tax", in fact the way the Federal Government is able to circumvent laws that were put into place to prevent exactly this situation. Since the Federal Reserve, which is owned by private entities, loans money to the US Government so it can operate, and since it also "federally" insures money on deposit at banks, you really have no say. So let me enlighten you to a scenario I have given a lot of thought to, and which bothers me a great deal. If our Government defaults paying interest to the Federal Reserve, that "we the people" owe due to our signing for a loan or bank account, the Federal Reserve could potentially confiscate funds in bank accounts to cover our governments debt. Just exactly the way gold was confiscated in 1933, and can replace the value of that money with whatever they desire. In 1933 it was paper money, with no real value. There is no law that exists that specifically prevents an action like this taking place.

But if our government doesn't know I have gold, or where I have it, I can take my gold, silver or whatever other precious metals, and leave this country before it's taken away from me and establish a life elsewhere. Try to do that with American Dollars.

You do business with corporations all the time even if you use a local middle man to do it. The house you own, car you drive, etc all came from large scale manufacturers. Its like saying you didn't support Walmart when you buy shirts because you paid Jimmy down the street for that shirt he purchased at Walmart.

People through history have used all kinds of things as cash besides metals. There are coins made of stone, leather goods, salt, spices, etc (anything convenient to transport that has a major use). You assume people still look at gold as currency when in the US most people under 50 don't even wear gold jewelry anymore. Perceptions change.

All large transactions today are done electronically, yet back in 1996 (first link I hit to Federal Reserve bulletins) stated that $200-250B out of $350B US circulating currency was overseas (more then half). So while banks deal with electronic funds the little guys outside of the US still deal in US banknotes. Before electronics transfers we used to print $100,000 banknotes (and other sizes) just to make inter banking transfers easier.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/b...6/1096lead.pdf

The government confiscated gold because it is a commodity, they can again if they want to. During WW2 470,000,000 ounces of silver (which backed silver certificates at the time) was melted into bars and used in the Manhatten Project (Atomic bomb) and wasn't remelted into bars until 1954.

http://www.roadtoroota.com/public/135.cfm

Try taking gold worth over $10K to any airport in the US on a flight going outside the country, you will be searched and detained until the local IRS agents come. I can paypal funds to anybody in the world under $10K a shot and nobody will even notice.

"In practice, if you're a US Citizen taking your own bullion OUT of the US, and its current value is more than $10k, expect to be detained at the airport and heavily questioned (and threatened) by the IRS... and don't be surprised if they audit you for the next 10 years. Under new US tax laws/IRS regulations, taking ANY assets out of the country is considered prima-facie evidence of tax-evasion."

You can put your money into anything that makes you happy, just don't cry when that nestegg shrinks down the road or you have a hard time cashing it out.

Originally Posted by unknownk

Try taking gold worth over $10K to any airport in the US on a flight going outside the country, you will be searched and detained until the local IRS agents come. I can paypal funds to anybody in the world under $10K a shot and nobody will even notice.

Actually try taking $10k worth of paper money out of the US. Matter of fact, try flying outside the US, or into the US with anything worth more than $10k and you have to declare it. But suggesting that you will be searched and detained by the IRS agents is just plain wrong. The IRS are not government agents to start with, if you are transporting large amounts of cash, and there were any question, it would be customs or ICE that would detain and do the preliminary investigation, with the Secret Service or possibly the FBI being contacted after, but not the IRS.

I can ship $10k or $100 million for that matter, worth of any precious metal to anywhere that there is not a trade embargo against, in the world without issue so long as I have the proper paperwork for. However, if you attempt to paypal someone over 9,999.99 you will not only be flagged for review by the IRS, but if you do it more than a few times you will probably also be investigated.

Even when I worked for United Air Lines, I used to see Americans detained for not declaring the amount of cash they were bringing into or leaving the country with. I worked at the International terminal, outside, on the ramp and used to watch Customs literally walk their dogs OVER the bags as they were laid on the moving belt that transported them to inside the terminal, they would sometimes find contraband, or in many cases, money well in excess of $10k, the dogs would actually smell it. They would confiscate the contraband or cash and deal with the owners in whatever way they were suppose to.

I can promise you that I can ship well over $10k worth of gold with far less hassle than I can fly somewhere with $10k worth of cash and legally declaring it. Matter of fact, if you want to get technical, it is the same exact paperwork you have to fill out if you are transporting $10k worth in money or $10k worth in jewelry you are wearing. Yet it's far easier to walk around with a $20k gold watch than it is with $10k worth of $100 dollar bills.

Originally Posted by unknownk

"In practice, if you're a US Citizen taking your own bullion OUT of the US, and its current value is more than $10k, expect to be detained at the airport and heavily questioned (and threatened) by the IRS... and don't be surprised if they audit you for the next 10 years. Under new US tax laws/IRS regulations, taking ANY assets out of the country is considered prima-facie evidence of tax-evasion."

Again you are wrong, the IRS might scrutinize you financial information, if you do not properly declare what you are leaving the country with, but it's Customs or ICE, the FBI or Secret Service that will be investigating you. The IRS is not part of the DOJ. Please consider this:

The IRS is a government corporation created by the Secretary of the Treasury pursuant to a congressional statutory grant of authority (see specifically IRC § 7801). The IRS is not an agency of the United States Government but it is declared by statute to be a federal agency of the United States. The United States Government was created by the Constitution as a central government representing the interests of the several States. Congress, however, is delegated authority over its territory and other property, i.e., the United States, pursuant to Art. 4 § 3(2), Congress' power to make "all needful rules and regulations" over its territory, i.e., United States' property or real estate. Acting in this capacity, Congress is not acting as a central government for the several States but is acting in the capacity as a state legislature over its territory and other property. The federal income tax is not pursuant to Art 1 § 8(1) but Art. 4 § 3(2). The Secretary in IRC § 7805 is delegated the authority to enforce Title 26 with "all needful rules and regulations." The Commissioner has only the authority the Secretary delegates to him as he is an inferior or subordinate public officer. No authority to enforce the internal revenue laws is delegated to him by statute. A Treasury Order specifically names the Commissioner to be the Chief Executive Officer of the IRS. The IRS is a government corporation which administers taxes laid within United States' territories and insular possessions and upon those who are subject to Congress' Art. 4 § 3(2) legislative jurisdiction, i.e., the "citizen of the United States" wherever resident.

So long as you properly document and claim what you are taking out of the country, filling out all the required paperwork prior to leaving the country, you can transport gold as a private citizen. You can ship large quantities of gold if you are a business and transporting or shipping outside the country. The key is to make sure you are doing everything legally, but if so, there is nothing to prevent you from doing so. The laws you are trying to insinuate would prevent someone from doing what you suggest, pertain only to people who do not declare their valuable items or cash, and are trying to leave the country with them so as to evade taxes. The difference is fairly clear and easy to understand.

So you are totally off base when you claim that taking ANY assets out of the country is evidence of tax evasion.

I am enjoying this thread and all the debate, but please keep the facts, facts and not state things as being true when they are not. If we keep this thread honest, we might find that it produces some valuable and accurate information that people can rely on. I for one have learned a bit already.

And just another thought for you to mull over. If I wanted to keep a large amount of any precious metal off shore, there are more ways of doing so than there are ways of moving cash. Because spot prices are the same all over the world, I could simply sell my gold here in the US, and buy gold somewhere else, and could do so using a banking instrument like a letter of credit, and could use my letter of credit like a loan which would enable me to claim the interest against my taxes at the end of the year. Or, as a business, I could start an amex account and simply deposit my gold into my amex account, and withdraw the same amount in physical form wherever in the world I wanted to.

Scott