Biscuits Catylitic Converter Project

Another of my long term projects, trying to maximize my profits from catalytic converters, as you all know I de-can all my catalytic converters then mill the comb and bead into powder.

My drum is approching the half way mark to being filled, as soon as that compressor motor arrives I have another 75 cats to mill then I'll be sending in my first samples for an assay to see where I stand with this project.

The type of assay is ICP which costs around $500.00 for 3 elements, platinum, palladium and rhodium so its not likely that I'll be sharing the results from my assays unless someone wants to anti up and share the cost.

To be reasonable I would consider offering a copy of my assay for a small fee with a non disclosure agreement.

Once the assay is returned to me, I will give my opinion freely on weather it is worth the effort to de-can and mill your own catalytic converters.

Edited to add, assays report parts per million - if the assay report showed that you 1 ppm this would indicate that your material contains 1 gram per metric ton.

ICP-OES Inductively coupled plasma optical emissions spectroscopy is a major technique for elemental analysis.

The sample to be analyzed, if solid, is normally first dissolved and then mixed with water before being fed into the plasma. Atoms in the plasma emit light (photons) with characteristic wavelengths for each element.

This light is recorded by one or more optical spectrometers and when calibrated against standards the technique provides a quantitative analysis of the original sample. ICP instruments comprise of various optical spectrometers, nebulizers, spray chambers, ICP torch and RF generators.

It will be interesting and informative. Thanks for sharing and thanks for coming back. Mike.

Originally Posted by miked

It will be interesting and informative. Thanks for sharing and thanks for coming back. Mike.

No problem Mike, I'm not going to be making any friends among the catalytic buyers.

Last night while loading up the ball mill had a comb too large to fit through the charge door so set the comb on my table saw then gave it a smack with my claw hammer to split it in half. Now the weird part was that observing both ends of the comb they looked perfect but once split open it looked like it had been riddled with termites there was bore holes throughout the comb.

I mention this in the interest of making it common knowledge that the catalytic buyers are buying blind, although mileage and age will play into what is left behind in the comb for values to be refined out. You need that assay to know where you stand.

I'm not going to get into a rant on buying and selling it's a free market and people are free to do as they wish its just that I have chosen a different route hopefully we all gain more knowledge from this project giving us choices in how we deal with our cats in the future.

The bare minimum required to send into the refinery is 500 kg, I will elaborate more on this later as to who we should be using not only from my own personal experience but from others I have contact with.

Later I will edit this post with a picture of the ball mill so that everything related to this project is kept in one thread.

Originally Posted by freonjoe

Thanks for the update. I wonder if the cat buyers already figure that in when they set pricing on cats?

The problem is there is no possible way to determine how badly the comb is degraded poking a stick into the end only tells the buyer the cat has a comb inside. but not the condition the comb I split last night was unforeseeable.

This catalytic business is one big smoke screen then the refinery keeps the little guy out by imposing large lot sizes to get in the door creating middle men who purchase cats then send out to a de-canner who then sends out to the refinery. I can now see the merits of starting up a de-canning operation but it would take deep pockets to pull it off.

Because of the damage and natural degrading that occurs to a catalytic over its lifetime I'm not making any attempt to keep a body count or distinguish one cat from another it's only the finished weight I concern myself with.

Besides I'm finding that there are many different car models using the same type and style of catalytic converter, making identification even more problematic. I'll leave this to the buyers so that they can BS the public.

If the car is not equipped with a pre cat the rhodium is in the biscuit closest to the engine so I'm assuming pre cats would have the rhodium, current market value for this metal is weak which would account for the low buy value on pre cats.

All that stuff just makes my brain tired!

Pile of converters waiting to be processed, no Jaguar or Mercedes.

On the scale assay sample which will be mailed out this afternoon for. Once the results are known I will post them here.

A shocking revelation from the refiner I was planning to use they are not at the top of the food chain although their web-page makes claims that they process in house.



Check out the deception for yourself Company Profile http://www.pmrrefiner.com/Corporate-Profile.php

In previous telephone calls I've always spoken with the top dog, he was not available this afternoon which allowed me to get some straight answers from one of the employees. The question asked was if they were using wet chemistry or the state of the art Plasma Arc Furnace.

Here is what I was told, PMR receives the cats then decans them to mill the comb into a fine powder which gets shipped out a mining company that owns a P.A.F. when the guy realized that he had said to much when I asked if this material was being shipped to Sudbury Ontario. He tried to wriggle out by saying they had booked time on the furnace without further comment.

International Nickel has a large nickel mine located in Northern Manitoba from the ore mined they get a certain amount of platinum group metals which they ship to their processing plant in Sudbury. I was already working this lead but got some woman who had only recently started her employment with the company and she told me that the cat material was not suitable to mix with the feed stock and that it was shipped to the UK. Well it looks like I've come full circle after that conversation I had with PMR.

When time permits I will l do more follow up on the Sudbury plant.

I also asked the average value per pound for mixed domestic cats, PMR guy said between $20.00 / $40.00 lb, I made some notes of today's spot prices then when my assay results some back we'll know how far off base he was. With the safe spread he gave himself I'm hoping that my material assays $40.00 lb o better. as there are no exotic converters in that lot.

What I really need to know is what mesh size to grind my cat combs down to making them suitable feedstock for the plasma arc furnace.

Wow, it seems from your writtings here the cat market is barrel of snakes and secrets. Mike.

Originally Posted by miked

Wow, it seems from your writings here the cat market is barrel of snakes and secrets. Mike.

When that assay report comes back I'm going to share the results, it will give us an idea how much snake oil there is in the de-canning end of the business, we won't get our feathers ruffled over street level buyers. If I had deep pockets this is where I would have started with this project.

Already I have formed some ideas, you all know that I'm 62 years old with back and neck injuries, no pension plan and no savings to speak of my checking account 1rst of this month had a $7.00 balance and had my first check ever $17.00 bounce. Idiot posted the check 30 days after I had issued it.

Once I get this first batch refined win or loose I gave it my best shot, if its a winner I have some plans in the making, being in the scrap business as long as I have made some good contacts. If I'm able to show them better returns on their catalytics I'm thinking that I may set up as a de-canner, miller and outsource the assay. then forward the milled cats to a refiner.

You may recall from another post this crane truck is only a two year project, last trip it goes into the scrap heap, it will have served its purpose.

This afternoon did come across a refiner with a plasma arc furnace that offers toll refining and pool accounts, we're getting closer to the top of the food chain.

You may recall from another psot this crane truck is only a two year poject, last trip it goes into the scrap heap, it will have served its purpose.

If it's still running at that time you might be able to sell it to another scrapper starting out, you'd get way more than scrap value from it. It doesn't matter what you paid for it, it's what it's worth and what it can generate for a weekly income.

Originally Posted by hobo finds

I can't scrap a car without a cat on it around here!

Hobo am I reading into this that you have trouble finding a scrap car with the cat still on it.

Part of the plan for this year once I have most of the cars available with in reasonable distance from me is to park the crane truck then re-license the dodge pick up and go north- where ever that maybe.

I figure that the cars local to me should net me around 10 / 15 thousand cash, this will not buy me many cats but get me closer to my goal then I can max out my credit card to finish up. I've managed to keep the card with a zero balance. It's a gamble I would take if the payout from refining is timely.

Originally Posted by Mechanic688

If it's still running at that time you might be able to sell it to another scrapper starting out, you'd get way more than scrap value from it. It doesn't matter what you paid for it, it's what it's worth and what it can generate for a weekly income.

This may sound selfish, but why would I invite competition into the cat business that I'm struggling to get into. The truck is an 1985 has some small rust holes in the floor, the fuel tank straps on one tank were completely rusted away I made new ones from stainless steel.

The odometer more than likely been around several times, during this last safety inspection one wheel seal was leaking when I replaced it I had noticed that the brake drum had heat cracks and the shoes are near minimum and will soon need replacing.

As it is now I have the wet road valve open, what this does is keep the front brakes from coming full on during a braking application.

The front brake limiter is a great feature when your on mud, snow, ice or wet roads, anyhow to conserve on what is left of the front brake shoes and maybe get another year out of the truck this is how I have chosen to operate the front brakes. Since I'm in the country wth very little traffic and a likelihood of having to do an emergency stop this works for me.

Even though the crane would still be operational it will also have had its 30th birthday.

This is the top of the food chain refiner, some interesting tid bits from their website.

It's obvious that the feedstock is milled before entering the plasma arc furnace. When I decided to get into this project knew that catylitic comb and beads were to be treated as ore same as if you mined it from the earth. Only difference is that cats are high grade ore recovered from urban mining.



The catalyst materials are fed into the plasma arc furnace. A 10,000 degree centigrade electric flame moves across the surface of the catalyst heating them to temperatures that range from 1,500 to 1,600 degrees centigrade. The plasma arc is moved above the molten bath to distribute the tremendously intense heat over the entire surface, keeping the bath fluid and providing a stirring effect, causing the precious metals to collect together and settle to the bottom of the furnace in a layer of molten metal.

The slag flows continuously from the furnace, is cooled, crushed and sold to steel manufacturers for use in manufacturing high grade steel. The precious metal alloy is tapped, cooled, milled, then refined into Platinum, Palladium and Rhodium.

Came across this bit of information while the mutt was out having a wiz. 400 series stainless. This would explain why cutting off catalytics with the sawzall plays havoc with the blades.

In the beginning I was using 14 tpi blades but have now switched over to 10 tpi with faster cutting with longer blade life.

409 is a titanium stabilized ferritic stainless steel. Although regarded as a general-purpose chromium stainless steel the primary application for Grade 409 is automotive exhaust systems.

Corrosion Resistance
Grade 409 resists atmospheric and exhaust gas corrosion. A light surface rust will form in most atmospheres; this rust retards further corrosion but makes the surface undesirable for decorative applications. The corrosion resistance is about the same as that of 3CR12 and the 12% chromium martensitic grades such as 410, and inferior to the 17% chromium grade 430.

Heat Resistance
Generally 409 is classified as resistant to scaling in intermittent service up to 815°C and up to 675°C in continuous service, but these temperatures are dependent upon the exact service environment.

Typical applications include:

• Automotive exhaust systems

• Catalytic converters

• Mufflers