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This may be coming soon to your town

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    KC-SF started this thread.
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    This may be coming soon to your town

    This is San Francisco's latest answer to preventing metal theft:
    (Printed in the San Francisco Chronicle 12-12-2012)

    They've stripped copper wire from traffic signals, pilfered bleachers from public parks and even taken to the water to pirate metal scraps from the old Hunters Point Shipyard. But by early next year, these thieves may have far less of an incentive to raid San Francisco's public and private property for metal.

    The explosion of metal theft from construction sites, public transit tracks, graveyards, foreclosed homes and utilities has become a national problem as the economy tanked and the value of copper and other metals skyrocketed. Now, San Francisco hopes to crack down on metal thieves, who can make up to $4 a pound by selling their illicit goods to the city's largely unregulated junk dealers.



    Legislation passed unanimously Tuesday by the city's Board of Supervisors would create a stricter permitting system that applies both to buyers and sellers, in part by giving the Police Department more power to yank permits from shady players.

    "It's a signal to all parties involved that we are paying attention and this has to stop," said Supervisor Malia Cohen, who authored the legislation and whose Bayview-area district is home to San Francisco's four metal dealers. "I believe this legislation will go a long way to making the industry more transparent. It's balanced and long overdue."

    Cohen created the legislation after consulting police officers, constituents and representatives of some of those hit often by metal thieves - including BART, Muni and Colma cemeteries. The changes, she said, will bring San Francisco's permitting process more in line with state law and similar local laws governing other industries.

    "It's a racket all the way around," Cohen said of the current permit structure, under which sellers are not regulated and junk dealers' permits never expire. "I hope other municipalities will be able to pass similar legislation."

    The new rules, which must pass the board one more time in January before heading to Mayor Ed Lee, call for all current permits to expire in June. Junk dealers would have to apply to the Police Department and pay $1,358 annually for a permit; sellers would pay $768 every two years, though licensed contractors would be exempt.

    The Police Department would have discretion over who qualifies for a permit and could place conditions on any approval. The department could also suspend or revoke a seller's or buyer's permit if those conditions are violated. Applicants would be required to disclose any previous criminal offenses, though having a conviction would not necessarily disqualify someone from securing a permit.

    Junk dealers didn't officially oppose the proposed law, but Daniel Strechay, a spokesman for the international company Sims Metal Management, which operates a yard near the Dogpatch neighborhood, said the company is troubled that it will have to reapply for a permit annually.

    "While we appreciate the intent and will comply with San Francisco's proposed new ordinance, we have concerns about the uncertainty the new permit conditions would bring to recycling operations in San Francisco, in particular how the renewal review process would work," he said in a written statement.

    Police officials said the annual renewal process is exactly what will give the proposed law teeth. Bayview Station's acting captain, Lt. Robert O'Sullivan, told a board committee last week that the proposal is "much needed."

    "It affords the chief of police and department people like myself the ability to suggest conditions on the permits," he said.

    The Police Department has conducted several sting operations at the junk dealers, resulting in felony charges against two businesses' employees who allegedly accepted copper wire that was clearly identifiable as belonging to Pacific Gas and Electric Co.

    Two of those cases, against employees of J&S Recycling, are still pending, said district attorney's spokesman Alex Bastian. A third man, Stephen ****son, who works at Sims Metal Management, pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor charge and was placed on probation, Bastian said.

    Link: S.F. supes seek to curb metal theft - SFGate


    WTF?
    What's wrong with this picture?
    In the eyes of the law, the difference between a 'seller' and a 'dealer' is that one doesn't buy and resell their inventory. Everyone that picks up abandoned stuff off the street would be a 'seller' and everyone else would be a 'dealer'.

    Sure, this could possibly reduce metal theft because no one could afford the permits and the scrap yards will only be allowed to buy from permitted 'sellers' or other 'dealers'. A couple yards have said that they won't afford to stay in business if this passes, and the net result is the city is going to be left with mountains of scrap abandoned in the streets everywhere.

    WTF are these law makers thinking? This is only going to start a larger black market between the 'sellers', 'dealers', and people without permits. The end result is the honest 'little guys' are going to get screwed.

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    Oh goody. More government interference. The biggest thieves of all.

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    It's giving the police sole authority to regulate an industry and deine anyone a permit for any reason. Just peachy
    Alvord iron and salvage
    3rd generation scrapper and dam proud of it

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    That's ridiculous. Requiring a business to pay $1,358 annually for a permit? The Chamber of Commerce should be all over this because it starts with the scrap businessman and once they see the revenue stream it could expand to gas stations, convienence stores, and on and on and on. I say forget the permit and raise the fine for the few offenders! Why penalize the honest businessman?
    If it wasn't for the $ in $crap, it would just be.....

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    If the police were smart enough to enforce the laws we got already we'd be doing better already

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    responsible feeeeeeeeedooooom is the only answer, what it will take to get that is another mater all together. this will pass no doubt, because no one cares about us but us. and of course it will spread to other areas it is an easy take.

    we have nearly 10,000 members here ,what do you suppose 10,000 e mails or phone calls to the SF city mayor would do . lets put up or shut up.

    sf mayor 1 415 554 6141 E mail: mayoredwinlee@sfgov.org
    Last edited by EcoSafe; 12-13-2012 at 01:45 PM.
    "anyone who thinks scrappin is easy money ain't doin it right!"

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    just tied to call the SF mayors office. recoding says hours are 8:30 to 5:00 but also said the office was closed.. maybe some cost cutting should start there. just sayin

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    Scrapping so far has been an unregulated business, therfore if your a small time or parttime scrapper there is no way the IRS can collet taxes on the money made. By permitting the buyer and the seller the IRS can track what money you are making and make you pay taxes. This goes for small and large governments. If you noticed it says that contractors are excempt from this law, that's because they already have the info they need on those companies. This is just another way for the government to watch what your doing. Many peole are collecting unemployment and making money through selling scrap. I could go on but thats enough of a rant for tonight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by olddude View Post
    just tied to call the SF mayors office. recoding says hours are 8:30 to 5:00 but also said the office was closed.. maybe some cost cutting should start there. just sayin
    Maybe they were out on their 3 hour lunch.

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    sounds like a good idea to me.

    sounds like a lot more scrap will be out on the street for curb shoppers with a permit.

    if a scrap yard cant afford $1400 a year permit then im not sure how they are still in business now.

    http://reclaimtech.com/
    We pay you to recycle!

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    don't y'all get whats happening? just like the medical marijuana in the state of California. i am sure the city of San Francisco has a processing plant at the local waste disposal to sort out the recyclable materials. over tax and regulate the scrappers out of the equation and all of that stuff goes to the landfill to be sorted by the city then who makes the money on recycling---> the city and the county/state. and those who do decide to pay the fees will pay more the next year and the next and so on. that is the same thing they are trying to do with the medical MJ. they over taxed the dispensaries to shut them down and at the same time where planting large crops of MJ on city property managed by city employees so they can pick up the slack. (seriously who pays their taxes a year in advance?) the government does not have to pay taxes to itself so it is all profit to them and another way for city officals to shake people down and skim a little off the top. the state of California is so messed up if they see anyone making money they try to figure out how to push them out to take over the market.

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    Um... I think the article was about stopping metal theft. And I do think it's important to do so, assuming it is possible. (Yes, I know what happens when you break the word "assume" down.) But the real problem concerning theft is it is very difficult to legislate. Make all the laws you want, but thieves will keep stealing as long as there is an outlet for them to make money. So in a way, I support this legislation since it removes one of the outlets.

    In a way, I'll admit, I don't because it could price many of us honest small-time folks out of business. I'm hoping that maybe we can find some kind of middle ground. Maybe based on income or something.

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    Isn't theft already against the law in Ca? Mike
    "Profit begins when you buy NOT when you sell." {quote passed down to me from a wise man}

    Now go beat the copper out of something, Miked

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    Quote Originally Posted by drozenski View Post
    sounds like a good idea to me.

    sounds like a lot more scrap will be out on the street for curb shoppers with a permit.

    if a scrap yard cant afford $1400 a year permit then im not sure how they are still in business now.
    I agree and would pay 384.00 a year to get a permit. Even doing scrapping part time I can easily cover that in 2 weeks curb shopping. With all the rift-raft out, there will be just that much more available.

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    billygoat like miked said isn't theft already against the law. law breakers will always break the law regardless of what industry they move to. so that is why i have the opinion i do about things. is it really about theft? just like the gun rights debate do you think outlawing guns or taking away our right to carry them will stop crime or murders? or is it about controlling the actions of the people. it is our job as scrappers to make sure the people that are stealing are turned in and taken care of. if you ask me its mostly the fault of the scrap yards turning their heads to make a quick buck. if you look at my scrap buckets you can tell its from scrapping motors and appliances. I think a scrap yard can tell when someone brings in a park bench or industrial grade wire.

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    Sometimes, living in this state is embarrassing. I wish Northern California would break off and form their own state. At least we have enough veterans to balance things out politically down here. As they say, California is the granola state... Full of nuts, organics, chunks and flakes.
    Guess I'll keep my eyes out and my wallet open.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miked View Post
    Isn't theft already against the law in Ca? Mike
    Yes it is but the answer is always more laws that they can't enforce. This way government gets bigger and the sheeple think it is doing something to "protect" their rights while it is really taking them away.

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    Phantoms001 said: "I agree and would pay 384.00 a year to get a permit. Even doing scrapping part time I can easily cover that in 2 weeks curb shopping. With all the rift-raft out, there will be just that much more available."


    Do you think it's right that they take two more weeks of your hard earned money? You already work for four or five months every year just to pay your income tax (assuming you are reporting your income). The more they get their fingers in your profession the harder it will be to get them out and it will get easier for them to apply more pressure. Where does it stop?

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverZ View Post
    Phantoms001 said: "I agree and would pay 384.00 a year to get a permit. Even doing scrapping part time I can easily cover that in 2 weeks curb shopping. With all the rift-raft out, there will be just that much more available."


    Do you think it's right that they take two more weeks of your hard earned money? You already work for four or five months every year just to pay your income tax (assuming you are reporting your income). The more they get their fingers in your profession the harder it will be to get them out and it will get easier for them to apply more pressure. Where does it stop?
    It baffles me that people would want more fees, regulations and general interference from big brother. Yes, please, tax me into oblivion.

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    KC-SF started this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drozenski View Post
    sounds like a good idea to me.

    sounds like a lot more scrap will be out on the street for curb shoppers with a permit.

    if a scrap yard cant afford $1400 a year permit then im not sure how they are still in business now.
    Besides the permit fee, the yards are predicting at least a 40-60% drop in volume due to people without permits not being able to bring in their loads. Not everyone is going to hop on the permit bandwagon. Most scrappers will probably haul their loads to yards in the next county.


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