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Originally Posted by Patriot76

I agree that they are great workers and have every right to better themselves. I just think one expectation for living in the U.S. should be to learn our language. In decades past immigrants learned our language and often spoke their native tongue at home or in their communities. We did not teach English as a second language in schools and immigrates took pride in learning our language. Some may remember the demolition job I did in Omaha where everyone on the crew only spoke Spanish except the foreman and myself. That was the hardest working crew I ever dealt with, but communication was a major issue. Is it to much to ask that they learn our "official" language or am I expected to learn their language. Rant over.

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Strictly my opinion:

I have more respect for the person pushing the shopping cart into the scrapyard than others ........ ( fill in the blank).

Arriving in this country as an Eastern European immigrant at 2 yrs. old, I am bilingual. Looking back on friends and family who also immigrated to this great country, there was a mix regarding learning the language. My parents and similar aged folk, learned English. The kids were all bilingual speaking native language at home and English outside. We also went to school and were taught.

My grandparents did not speak much English. I believe that age had something to do with this, and necessity. My grandparents spoke few English words, but were able to communicate there thoughts as rudimentary. They had no problem counting or spending money, lol.

Back than there were little government handouts. My dad said “ back home you have to roll up your shirt sleeves to your wrists. Here you have to roll up your shirt sleeves to your to your elbows.” Translation: no handouts, get a job, assimilate, earn your own way, work hard, be a productive member of society. This is The primary reason I know the value and how to scrap,repurpose, and recycle. Times were lean.

My parents fled the horrors of Hitler to find a better life for themselves and the family and they did. They did not tell us much but what we did hear, at times, was heart breaking. We came here, paying our own passage on a plane. Did not come through Ellis Island. Again no handouts and became naturalized US citizens.

Whatever people’s reasons are to come to the US, as a guest in this country, we followed the rules. Others should do so also. At 8 yrs. old, I was very proud to become a naturalized citizen and swear allegiance to my new home and country.


With that said, this is my opinion on the subject matter. It is not meant to offend anyone or any nationality. Others have different situations. I do feel strongly in saying that whomever does come here should contribute to society and not be looking for a handout.

God bless America.

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Originally Posted by btkr

...Whatever people’s reasons are to come to the US, as a guest in this country, we followed the rules. Others should do so also. At 8 yrs. old, I was very proud to become a naturalized citizen and swear allegiance to my new home and country...

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As a Libertarian I often find myself at odds with both the Democrats and Republicans. I believe in a free market, and I think the Wall will only serve to displace and distress wildlife populations and send our national debt levels to soaring heights, pushing us to the brink of an economic collapse.

That said, I do understand the fears your average blue-collar citizen has about illegal immigration and it's effects on the labor force. I don't for a second believe it's only about racism(as if Guatemalan or Mexican is a race) and fear of "brown people".

Before I got into the metal business I worked for a year and a half as a public health inspector in my county. Inspecting restaurants I saw with my own eyes the incredible amount of Hispanic men--in particular--who worked long hours and lived in dormitory-style housing situations to send as much money back home to their native country as possible. It's hard for a U.S. citizen to compete in the open market against these men while paying taxes and raising a family on U.S. soil. I can see now why roofers born and raised in America would struggle to compete against a crew of Mexicans sending the bulk of their $60 daily wage home to their families in Mexico and living 10 to an apartment to pool their resources in the meantime.

It's a tough riddle to solve and I don't have the answer. The only thing I know for sure is that the Pareto Principle has been shown to apply, generally and broadly, to the labor market as a whole. This means that, roughly speaking, 20% of workers do 80% of the work. If I can always be pushing to be in that 20% I have a really good case for why I should be able earn my fair share of the pie!

OH how I have to restrain myself from this discussion.

One thought and I will leave this alone.

Real control of the boarder wood stifle the drug/human trafficking on the Mexican/US boarder. Stopping of the drug and human trafficking would free the Mexicans citizens from the influence of the criminal gangs who run them. It would also take the money out of the crooked politicians and law enforcement officials pockets. I believe it cut way back on the tens of thousands murdered in northern Mexico each year due to the influence of these criminal activities.

Yes lets not build a wall so as to not sniffle the free movement of butterflies and other animals and continue the genocide of Mexicans that continues to take place just south of the border. There are so many other reasons why real border control is a really good idea but I promise I will not continue.

Sorry, Mike

Exactly how high can a butterfly fly?.....That would determine how tall the wall needed to be o:)

For the past 3 months I've been hanging out on another forum where anything goes. No moderators at all. I have to be very careful with my opinions and comments when I come in here. My only contribution to this thread is this. If me and my family lived in Mexico, I'd be coming across that border everyday to find work.

It's all good in theory, but i'm not entirely convinced that the wall would be all that effective. You know how people are ... throw an obstacle in their way ... they will find a way around, above, or under it. It might be a lot of money spent for something that doesn't work all that well.

In the other hand ... we might be able to turn it around and make a good thing out of it. We could save a ton of money on construction costs by hiring illegals to build it.

Get them to solve the problem for us ? :cool:

Today President Trump offered his solution for immigration. It is based on a rubric that rewards those with special skills and education. It also requires immigrants to learn English, something the national media has highlighted like it is something new. It is interesting that to become a citizen of the U.S. you have to pass an English test as well as the civics test written in English. An exemption can be granted to those who over the age of 50 who have lived in the country for at 15 years. If a person wants to reap the benefits from our country, maybe they should become a citizen.

I wasn't born in Colorado, only been here since 1975. I was born in the Midwest section of the United States of America.

I am happy for that, I like living here, but I didn't decide to be born here, I had nothing to do with where when or even how I was born.

Not a political statement. It's just a statement.

The way to stop the cartels is to stop the abject failure that we call The War on Drugs. That or Americans need to stop doing the drugs in the first place, which is really what funds these terrorist organizations south of the border in the first place. Either one of those things happening is about as likely as Scarlet Johansson walking into my office right now in nothing but a red bow and fingernail polish.

I won't go on anymore either except to say that you should really sit down to think and ask yourself whether you truly believe criminal gangs that cut off the heads of men, women and children by the bus-full are really going to just pack it up and go home because you built a %$^$&* fence...

I worked out that it would take 72 full container ships full of 40 foot containers, worth of containers standing on their ends, to build a complete wall.

I may be wrong but I believe the Germans built a wall that worked rather well. Also, what is it that separates north and south Korea??

Not saying I agree or disagree.

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Originally Posted by RagnBone

The way to stop the cartels is to stop the abject failure that we call The War on Drugs. That or Americans need to stop doing the drugs in the first place, which is really what funds these terrorist organizations south of the border in the first place. Either one of those things happening is about as likely as Scarlet Johansson walking into my office right now in nothing but a red bow and fingernail polish.

I won't go on anymore either except to say that you should really sit down to think and ask yourself whether you truly believe criminal gangs that cut off the heads of men, women and children by the bus-full are really going to just pack it up and go home because you built a %$^$&* fence...

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Totally get what you're saying. If anyone is to blame for this ... it would have to be the American consumer. The criminal gangs down south of the border would go bankrupt if consumer demand for their product dried up.

We really need to have a change of heart here. This drug problem is screwing up our quality of life. It's so destructive to our families and communities. Is it really all that hard for people to see what it's doing to us ? Is it really all that hard for people to make a choice of their own free will to not be a part of it ?

I may be naive but there are certain areas that are fairly drug free. Take the trucking industry for instance. Oil drilling industry as well. Law enforcement ? They're all subject to random drug testing.

Heroin was starting to work it's way into our area but the community pushed back. We put that as a top priority for local law enforcement to deal with, set up treatment programs for addicts, and barred those with addictions from our fishing fleet. Half of the fishing fishing boat captains are a bunch of pirates but even they could agree that there was no way they were going to tolerate a bunch of junkies on their boats. They're there to work hard and make tons of money. If any of their crew aren't promptly on the job at 3:00 A.M, with their head in the game, they're quite apt to get fired on the spot.

Anyway ... guess i've rambled on long enough. Just sayin' i think there's hope that things could be different.

We've been here as a nation before in the late 1800's & early 1900's. Hard drugs and alcohol were causing a lot of problems back then. We turned the tide in the other direction during the 1920's.

Illegal drugs will always be there. It's unlikely that we could ever completely root them out. It's really more like trimming them back from time to time so that things don't get out of hand.

Several thoughts have been presented that cause a person to reflect on the direction we might be headed. A couple of points to ponder in this discussion. When the Berlin Wall was in place the biggest abuse of drugs in
East Germany was performance enhancement drugs compliments of the government. Since it's fall the use of illicit drugs has been on the rise. Hard facts about North Korea are hard to come by. History demonstrates the same pattern as the Greeks, Romans, Mongols, and Germanic tribes all used drugs although many were not illegal. The variable in these cultures was the type of ruling government. The constant was open or closed borders. As Hills correctly point out drug use started to decline in the U.S. during the start of a movement called isolationism. These facts indicate to me that if we have controlled borders (not closed) we could start solving some of our challenges. To rephrase my belief, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

All things considered .... i'm truly on the fence with this one.

If you look at the Berlin wall ... it was really more of a heavily guarded boarder between east and west Germany. The wall was really more of a symbol of the iron curtain. The reason Berlin was favored was because it's a place that easterners could legally and safely pass to the west for work or immigration purposes. The brain drain from east to west became a problem for the Soviet state so they had to close the border. Point being: It wasn't always that way.

The east was pretty much a police state. The KGB and it's east german affiliates kept a very watchful eye on the ordinary citizen. It was more to stifle any political dissent but it would have been very effective at controlling the flow of drugs as well.

The border between north and south Korea stretches the length of the country. See ... the Korean war never really ended. It's only a truce or an armistice. An agreement was forged where both sides pulled back away from the battle lines and ceased fire. The buffer zone along the battle line stands pretty much intact to this day. That buffer zone is a dangerous place to be. It's heavily mined and patrolled. Trespassers are very well apt to get killed. Seeing as there's so little information coming out of north korea ... it's a pretty much safe bet that the people there are living under a tightly controlled totalitarian police state

Another such buffer zone exists between our base at Gitmo and the rest of the island of cuba. Cuba was not exactly a free state under the leadership of Fidel Castro.

There's the Great Wall of China. It's big with watchtowers at regular intervals and accommodations for military people. A lot of people died in construction of the wall and were used as landfill. Many of those were the intellectual class. Teachers and professors and such. People that could read and could think for themselves were a real threat to the power of the monarchy back then. Still are a threat to "the establishment" to this day.

One way of looking at this would be to say that when the walls go up, the guard towers are filled, and kill zones are established between borders .... an otherwise free people get locked inside and placed under the thumb of a police state.

An alternative to this in a free and open society would be for the citizens to regulate their own behavior. Maybe they choose to do this -or- not do that of their own free will and accord ?

Along with the freedom to choose comes the responsibility for the consequence of one's own actions ?

"Along with the freedom to choose comes the responsibility for the consequence of one's own actions ?" hills' quote.

A profound statement indeed and I broke my promise to shut up but I have followed this thread and have been impressed with generally the lack of bashing by contributors. To me this shows a mature and thoughtful group of contributors, hats off to you all.

The Berlin wall was built by the communists to keep their citizens from escaping to the west. Here we have a growing population who seems to not want to be answerable for their actions and who hold what I think may be a justification belief that no one else should not face consequences either. Hence the open borders movement gets more appearance of support. So I assume if these citizens don't feel they need to be held responsible for their actions/in-actions then why should folks from other countries.

A recent threat to deposit illegals in the sanctuary cities crying for open borders was greeted with cries from those very politicians that it was unfair. When our southern boarder states have been getting the majority of these released illegals for many years.

I think the war on drugs started with President NIxon and has proven to be ineffective but I don't have any brilliant ideas. People do what they do for some very bad reasons.

I actually do have some great ideas, not my own, that have worked well for me, LCHF, Keto, Carnivore much improved health.

73, Mike

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Originally Posted by RagnBone

The way to stop the cartels is to stop the abject failure that we call The War on Drugs. That or Americans need to stop doing the drugs in the first place, which is really what funds these terrorist organizations south of the border in the first place. Either one of those things happening is about as likely as Scarlet Johansson walking into my office right now in nothing but a red bow and fingernail polish.

I won't go on anymore either except to say that you should really sit down to think and ask yourself whether you truly believe criminal gangs that cut off the heads of men, women and children by the bus-full are really going to just pack it up and go home because you built a %$^$&* fence...

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I have considered what you refer to as a "fence". True border security will take a great deal more effort than a mere "fence".

So would as you consider what would happen IF our southern border were controlled and only what we want to cross was effectively only what did cross. This is theoretical unless it happens and can only happen if it is seriously attempted.

So what effect would that cause? I contend that south of the border the gangs would be forced to seek other routes and perhaps other businesses. For many the closure of the border would remove their income and they would move on. Undoubtedly the loss of income would force some real changes. Less money in the hands of criminals is a good thing.

The users of illicit drugs in the U.S. is of course the catililist for this drug traffic. President Nixon started the war on drugs and in my opinion seems to be a failure for all these many decades. The money spent on the war on drugs would have been better spent by the taxpayers who were forced to contribute the money.

If I knew or even had a thought worth sharing on relieving humans of drug abuse I would be shouting it.

For those who are unaware my wife of 37 years whom entered the U.S. as a refugee from Vietnam became a naturalized citizen August 2018. The process was difficult and took us a very long time to accomplish. I'm proud of her hanging in there and passing the exam.

My real question on why do folks still want to come here? Because there countries' truly suck. The U.S. should be held up as how to do it better.

In the sixth grade my teacher asked my class a question. "Why has the U.S. been so much more successful than so many much older well established countries?" I asked my teacher what the correct answer was. His response was he had no idea.

I believe I figured it out. In the U.S. you have the right to own property and control your labor freedom of movement.

My wife had visions of what the U.S. would be like prior to coming here and for those not alive during the sixties and early seventies there was a war in Vietnam. She keep hearing about all the "freedom" going on in the U.S. Years later she told me what she discovered about freedom in the U.S. she said "In America you free to succeed and fail".



I told you I've been holding back. 73, Mike

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Originally Posted by miked

In the sixth grade my teacher asked my class a question. "Why has the U.S. been so much more successful than so many much older well established countries?" I asked my teacher what the correct answer was. His response was he had no idea.

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If it's allright ... i'll take a run at this and throw out a few ideas.

The first would be that it really is a hard old world out there. It's survival of the fittest and we're the biggest, baddest, nastiest, most ruthless SOB's in the valley. This is our time to shine.

This leads into the second part:

The second part is that the fight to become number one is exhausting. The fight to maintain your position as number one is exhausting as well. There's always some healthy young upstart that's looking to knock you off the top of the hill and become number one themselves.

This leads to the third part:

(It's all about the impermanent nature of things.) We all have our day in the sun but then we get old and tired. We eventually fall by the wayside and another is born to carry on for us. The same thing applies to great nations too ! Empires rise and fall. Many of these older well established countries were the global superpowers of their day and then fell into decline. Just to name a few:

Germany ( WW1 & WW2 )
Italy ( The Roman empire )
Great Britain ( The sun never sets on the british empire. )
Russia / USSR
Portugal and Spain were once naval superpowers
Ancient Greece
Ancient China
Ancient Iran

The same will happen to the US someday. Nothing lasts forever.

OK if we are all talking politics - I will share my viewpoint, perhaps an unpopular one.

"You must love your neighbor as yourself" -Matthew 22:39
Explains why I agree with and like what Mike did to help someone.

"...man has dominated man to his harm" -Ecclesiastes 8:9
The basic undeniable history of humans - wherever they live.

"It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." -Jeremiah 10:23
Explains my stance on anything else regarding the topic of political issues.

"Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar" -Luke 20:25
I obey and respect the law, including paying my taxes.

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Originally Posted by SKWrapper

OK if we are all talking politics - I will share my viewpoint, perhaps an unpopular one.

"You must love your neighbor as yourself" -Matthew 22:39
Explains why I agree with and like what Mike did to help someone.

"...man has dominated man to his harm" -Ecclesiastes 8:9
The basic undeniable history of humans - wherever they live.

"It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." -Jeremiah 10:23
Explains my stance on anything else regarding the topic of political issues.

"Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar" -Luke 20:25
I obey and respect the law, including paying my taxes.

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I think two philosophies guide my life. The boomerang effect - what goes around comes around and give back more to the earth than you take. I just responded to another thread stating that there is more scrap available than people interested in hard work. I share my knowledge with my competition. In time they will be sending the bigger jobs to me. I have not been able to work since last July and since then I have picked up three large farms, several smaller farms, two mobile homes in town that are trashed, a concrete plant that was bought out and the new owners want it gutted including about eight concrete trucks, and the community landfill. This is in addition to about six other large jobs that I have on the backburner. Networking is one of the keys in business.

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Originally Posted by Patriot76

I think two philosophies guide my life. The boomerang effect - what goes around comes around and give back more to the earth than you take. I just responded to another thread stating that there is more scrap available than people interested in hard work. I share my knowledge with my competition. In time they will be sending the bigger jobs to me. I have not been able to work since last July and since then I have picked up three large farms, several smaller farms, two mobile homes in town that are trashed, a concrete plant that was bought out and the new owners want it gutted including about eight concrete trucks, and the community landfill. This is in addition to about six other large jobs that I have on the backburner. Networking is one of the keys in business.

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What has to be done to concrete truck to be able to scrap it.....seems would be alot of "extra" weight there.....do they account for that or do you have to disassemble