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A Scrappers Dream; Cutting Torch - Page 2

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  1. #21
    Mick's Avatar
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    Check out the title now. Is that what you wanted?

    People may laugh at me, but that's ok. I laugh all the way to the bank.


  2. #22
    Patriot76 started this thread.
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    Yesterday was another great day of training, so much information that needs to get organized before posting. Not only are we learning about the Petrogen system, we are also learning about all types of fuel cutting systems. This is not a sales pitch for their product, it is a complete experience in cutting metal. This company is training the military for the decommission of equipment in Afghanistan. Example - they have to teach first time users of a torch how to cut aluminum. I always thought aluminum would melt when torched, although it is not pretty, it can be cut. They use rebar as the fuel, see a previous post. In this case they are using diesel. The system can use gasoline, petrogen, white gas, diesel, kerosene, etc.

    They also instruct fireman and search and rescue teams the art of removing metal around victims. Yesterday we had a challenge to cut an I-beam from one side. The scenario was an I-Beam against concrete trapping a victim. Not only did you have to cut 6 - 8 inches across, you had to control the direction of sparks and slag. This is a little bit more detail than the average scrapper needs, but shows the attention to detail these individuals must focus on.

    In the Water Tank post, it was pointed out the problems the sand created in cutting the tank. Yesterday we worked on cutting metal against concrete. If the lessons learned yesterday were available this summer, the sand would not have been a challenge.

    I apologize for misspellings and grammar mistakes. Access to the internet is limited and using technology I am not familiar with increases the mistakes.
    Last edited by Patriot76; 02-07-2014 at 11:26 AM.

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  4. #23
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    I hate to break it to the people reading this or trying to assemble a thread one quote is gonna kill it. "Your either a burner or a learner." It's like asking me to weld I couldn't do it. Drive an 18 wheeler nope can't drive stick. I can learn it but does that mean I am gonna be able to do it. It's not all about the torch. Its about your setup and your gases and who's operating it. There's way to many variables to the equation to answer the questions proposed. You got gases to worry about, lines, head pressure, etc all affecting your tonnage output. The only thing that's going to answer your question is experience and using every torch ever produced to know what works for you. I am sure I will hurt someone's feelings on this thread when I tell them Harris and victor make junk torches. If you want a Harris or victor just buy the knock off flame tech junk it's all the same. They use junk heads and the solder doesn't hold up to intense heat. Using junk solder is going to mean its gonna spend time in the repair shop. Making junk seals for your triggers yup there good at that to. Mixing gases in the head or tubes yeah its 2014 figure out how to tip mix. Brass heads and were melting metal really??? I would rather pay more to get a torch that never needs repaired and I can use it as a baseball bat if I wanted to. Sorry about the rant but really there things to consider when choosing a torch.

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  6. #24
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    What brands do you recommend? Are the older Harris and Victor heads any good?

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistoneScrapProcessing View Post
    I hate to break...
    I guess take your post with a grain of salt. I highly doubt this is meant to be a "lets teach you everything you need to know about cutting torches" thread - but more of a hey, if you're reading this your making an effort to learn, and lets pool our knowledge (from reading and experience) with one another.

    Perfect example: I want to get a small set of oxy/acetylene torches for scraping and working on cars (that rust up here gets to be quite the rascal). I found an advertisement today for a set of Harris torches with hoses - no bottles. I got ahold of my welding friend and asked if he thought they were any good - he said he didn't know but bottles were expensive. Now that you mention they're junk I'll probally pass and shop around until I can find a set with bottles and possibly a better brand. I don't need anything to expensive as I don't take down skyscrapers. Heck I don't really even know how to use them and I've never cut anything, but I know I could figure it out in a matter of minutes with a friend showing me the ropes. I personally catch on quick.

    This was originally just something patriot put up to document his personal trials and tribulations and get advice and possibly help the forum be that much more valuable in the end. Personally I think It should have run its course and then the moderators could have cleaned it and pinned it and made additions to it.

    I'll be watching =)

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  10. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInTheHat View Post
    What brands do you recommend? Are the older Harris and Victor heads any good?
    Most anything they make is being made cheaper every day. Whether it's a hobby size, or industrial, if you go back 25 years you'll find most anything to be another animal.
    Whether you can still get good seal kits might be another story though.

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  12. #27
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    I would take it with a grain of salt to. If your doing small time scrapping then any small set will work. It's when you get into moving tonnage that you start finding out what works and what doesn't. I have used everything smith flametech Harris victor oxweld etc. The problem is once you stop using a 12 inch torch and have to start out fresh trying to do a big job with little to no experience burning. The upside is it was everyone's first time one time. Experience is going to trump everything and remember a gas/torch supplier is going to try to sell you what ever makes him a good profit. There in business to make money. They sell you a torch say a Harris it breaks down over time and you gotta get it fixed Harris and the supplier both make more money off you. Your supplier is only going to sell u what they know and are familiar with does that mean its gonna work or has that salesman worked in the field with that torch or did they get knowledge from reading a pamphlet?? Like I said earlier there's to many variables to the equation for one person to really tell you what's going to work. Trial and error is the only way to really learn.

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  14. #28
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    Harris Torches... Mine didn't even last 5 uses before the cutting oxygen valve fell apart
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  16. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinroch View Post
    Harris Torches... Mine didn't even last 5 uses before the cutting oxygen valve fell apart
    Those have a packing nut under the adjustment knob which not only adjusts pressure on the packing, but also holds the flow adjustment knob and the valve together. If the packing nut isn't snugged it can come loose while you're twisting the flow adjustment knob ; )
    Last edited by Bear; 02-06-2014 at 09:37 PM.

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  18. #30
    Patriot76 started this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistoneScrapProcessing View Post
    I hate to break it to the people reading this or trying to assemble a thread one quote is gonna kill it. "Your either a burner or a learner." It's like asking me to weld I couldn't do it. Drive an 18 wheeler nope can't drive stick. I can learn it but does that mean I am gonna be able to do it. It's not all about the torch. Its about your setup and your gases and who's operating it. There's way to many variables to the equation to answer the questions proposed. You got gases to worry about, lines, head pressure, etc all affecting your tonnage output. The only thing that's going to answer your question is experience and using every torch ever produced to know what works for you. I am sure I will hurt someone's feelings on this thread when I tell them Harris and victor make junk torches. If you want a Harris or victor just buy the knock off flame tech junk it's all the same. They use junk heads and the solder doesn't hold up to intense heat. Using junk solder is going to mean its gonna spend time in the repair shop. Making junk seals for your triggers yup there good at that to. Mixing gases in the head or tubes yeah its 2014 figure out how to tip mix. Brass heads and were melting metal really??? I would rather pay more to get a torch that never needs repaired and I can use it as a baseball bat if I wanted to. Sorry about the rant but really there things to consider when choosing a torch.
    I do not think your quote ruins the thread. I am a learner after cutting iron for 30 years. So much to learn. Most people reading the thread are doing so because they want to learn more about torches. Some have plenty of experience, but want to add to their knowledge base. The burners reading the thread are here to provide their insight or to find humor in the lack of knowledge others have.

    As far as the brand of torches each has it's advantages. You have mentioned in other threads you have a preference, but you have not offered your torch of choice to the forum. I do not have experience with all the brands you listed, but most of them. Regardless which brand you select, knowing how to service it is a key to it's life. Most of the time when a torch goes bad it is because it was run to lean and you melt the o rings. Even the burners do this once in a while because they are trying to finish a cut as they are running out of fuel. The hotter you run a torch, the cooler the head remains. Therefore it is better to run a torch to rich than to lean. This wastes more fuel, but it extends the life of the torch. Yes you can melt the brass in a torch if you run it to lean, but if you run it rich it will cool the head and tip.
    Last edited by Patriot76; 02-07-2014 at 11:27 AM.

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  20. #31
    Patriot76 started this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInTheHat View Post
    What brands do you recommend? Are the older Harris and Victor heads any good?
    I do not know if Piston will respond to your question, so I will give you my opinion. You are better off buying a complete set up with bottles in the long run. The bottles are the most expensive part. You can rent the bottles, but if you do much cutting you are better off buying them.

    On this project we will be using Smith and Petrogen torches. Both companies provided lessons in maintenance and we will be able to repair anything except the tubes running in the handle. If something goes wrong with these, both companies will replace the torch for free.

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  22. #32
    Patriot76 started this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WoodmanYoel View Post
    I guess take your post with a grain of salt. I highly doubt this is meant to be a "lets teach you everything you need to know about cutting torches" thread - but more of a hey, if you're reading this your making an effort to learn, and lets pool our knowledge (from reading and experience) with one another.

    Perfect example: I want to get a small set of oxy/acetylene torches for scraping and working on cars (that rust up here gets to be quite the rascal). I found an advertisement today for a set of Harris torches with hoses - no bottles. I got ahold of my welding friend and asked if he thought they were any good - he said he didn't know but bottles were expensive. Now that you mention they're junk I'll probally pass and shop around until I can find a set with bottles and possibly a better brand. I don't need anything to expensive as I don't take down skyscrapers. Heck I don't really even know how to use them and I've never cut anything, but I know I could figure it out in a matter of minutes with a friend showing me the ropes. I personally catch on quick.

    This was originally just something patriot put up to document his personal trials and tribulations and get advice and possibly help the forum be that much more valuable in the end. Personally I think It should have run its course and then the moderators could have cleaned it and pinned it and made additions to it.

    I'll be watching =)
    Thank you Woodman. You are right, I am willing to share my research and experience in return for other opinions and insights. Sharing our collective insights prevents each of us from having to learn the hard way.

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  24. #33
    Patriot76 started this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PistoneScrapProcessing View Post
    I would take it with a grain of salt to. If your doing small time scrapping then any small set will work. It's when you get into moving tonnage that you start finding out what works and what doesn't. I have used everything smith flametech Harris victor oxweld etc. The problem is once you stop using a 12 inch torch and have to start out fresh trying to do a big job with little to no experience burning. The upside is it was everyone's first time one time. Experience is going to trump everything and remember a gas/torch supplier is going to try to sell you what ever makes him a good profit. There in business to make money. They sell you a torch say a Harris it breaks down over time and you gotta get it fixed Harris and the supplier both make more money off you. Your supplier is only going to sell u what they know and are familiar with does that mean its gonna work or has that salesman worked in the field with that torch or did they get knowledge from reading a pamphlet?? Like I said earlier there's to many variables to the equation for one person to really tell you what's going to work. Trial and error is the only way to really learn.
    You are absolutely right, experience is the key. Information and knowledge before you start does have it's benefits as well. The intent of the thread is not for one person to tell you what's going to work, it is to share the experiences of many individuals so readers have a place to start. Then members of the forum can decide what works best for them. If there was one perfect torch, one perfect fuel, one perfect tool for every job, there would not be any competition. Individual needs will dictate choices.

    You are right about the distributors. In fact I believe this is why petrogen torches are not popular because distributors make a lot of money on fuel and a torch that can burn diesel, gasoline, white gas, kerosene, etc. takes away a lot of profit potential. This is the only reason found why the military, rescue teams, and fire departments use it but it is not common place for the general public.
    Last edited by Patriot76; 02-07-2014 at 08:12 AM.

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  26. #34
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    To eliminate possible confusion in the future, this information is being provided. Smith Torches has been part of the Miller Welding company for quite a few years. They recently change the name to Miller torches. If you need parts or service for a Smith Torch, you might have to contact a Miller distributor in the future.

    Something to think about if you buy a new torch is the service you get throughout the process. Instead of negotiating the price, you might be better off asking for cutting lessons, spare parts, and a lesson in repairing the torch. The added advantage is down the road when you need more information or help they will remember you were the one that was more interested in learning than getting the best deal. This type of relationship pays dividends in the long run.

    Using this strategy provided business prices for gas, even though no business existed at the time. When a fuel gauge was taken in on warranty, the distributor provided a new gauge free before it was even sent for repair. Smith covered the warranty and the distributor kept the new gauge for his inventory. (The problem with the gauge was my fault, I set it on top of the liquid oxygen tank and froze the diaphragm.) This was explained to the distributor when I found out the problem, but they still covered it. Eventually I became friends of one of the vice presidents of Smith Torches and this led to being introduced to the company cutting expert. When this project surfaced they offered to train our crew at no cost. Asking for information instead of a discount led to huge financial benefits in the long term.

    Two web sites for instructional videos is Miller - Welding Equipment Products - MIG/TIG/Stick Welders & Plasma Cutting and Cutting Torch Systems | Oxy-Fuel Cutting Alternatives | Petrogen Cutting Systems. Both companies provide excellent videos from lighting a torch, setting it for maximum efficiency, safety, and tips for cutting. It is assumed all torch manufacturers have the same resources available to the public, these are just the ones I am hanging my hat on. Petrogen Inc. offers one additional benefit. If you have problems you can ask questions and they will have an expert on a live feed demonstrating step by step solutions to your problem. Miller counters with live one on one help over the phone.
    Last edited by Patriot76; 02-07-2014 at 03:56 PM.

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  28. #35
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    Patriot,

    You have a fine sense of how to form a business partnership with a supplier. It doesn't have to be an antagonistic relationship that the bean counters tend to foster by squeezing the price to the last cent, as you pointed out.

    Thanks for the detailed information!!

    Jon.

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  30. #36
    Patriot76 started this thread.
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    Cutting school has been completed, certificates of completion provided and now it is time to organize the information received. This post will highlight Petrogen torches. This is not an endorsement for this system, only an attempt to pass on what has been learned. The knowledge gained about the other systems will be provided in future posts.

    As pointed out before, the advantages and disadvantages of acetylene, propylene (combination of propane and acetylene and may be misspelled), propane, gasoline, diesel, kerosene, white gas, etc. were discussed. Petrogen torches will work with all of these, although an adapter is needed to run the diesel and kerosene. Different tips are needed for fuel gasses. The Petrogen torch was designed to be used in any situation with any fuel available because of contracts with the military, Third World Countries, and various Search and Rescue organizations.

    John Browning of Browning Arms was working on a gasoline fueled torch when he died last century. His early designs became the basis of modern gasoline torches. Buying a new set up will run in the neighborhood of $ 3,200. If you already own a torch, you do not need an entire system. You would need to buy a torch, tips, Teflon fuel hose (acetylene hoses will deteriorate using gas or diesel), and pressurized gas can. Your gauges and oxygen hose can be used with this system. You can contact them directly for pricing based on your situation.

    Using gasoline you have a 99.96 oxidation rate which is based on the purity of the oxygen. Propane has a 60% and acetylene has a 70% oxidation rate. The steel you are cutting becomes fuel and 99% of the BTU's is produced by the steel you are cutting. More about oxidation rates will be provided later.

    In all my years of cutting iron, the metal was considered the enemy. Now that the chemistry has been explained, a whole new perspective and technique have been developed. Using the metal as an allie makes cutting much easier regardless of the system you use.
    Last edited by Patriot76; 02-07-2014 at 03:54 PM.

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  32. #37
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    A formula was presented that may help in the decision of what type of torch set up you need. Every ones needs are different, types of metal to be cut, thickness of metal, available fuel, personal preference, etc. Later each fuel will be broken down into the following categories. Not one fuel is on the top of all categories.

    Formula: VDOT

    Velocity - The velocity of the flame as it exits the torch meaning more force.
    Duration - The BTU release or the length of time fuel burns.
    Oxidation - Percent of iron which is fully consumed as fuel when cutting.
    Temperature - The temperature of the pre-heat flame.

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  34. #38
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    Did they teach you any techniques about cutting underwater or into a corner, or would that be on another thread?

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  36. #39
    Patriot76 started this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bear View Post
    Did they teach you any techniques about cutting underwater or into a corner, or would that be on another thread?
    It is funny you would ask that. Underwater cutting was discussed as far as what fuels are used and why. There are two floors in the plant that we have to pump out to start the project. I am a certified scuba diver and taught it to my students in school. No desire to cut the bottom floors underwater. We will use a hammer drill or augers to bore holes in the ice to pump out the water. We did not discuss cutting into a corner, probably because it comes so natural to me.

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    I learned to weld using oxy-acetylene, and although I never tried cutting into one, I sure learned how difficult it is to weld into one ; )
    Cutting into a water puddle really isn't that difficult, even 6 or 8 inches deep

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