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A Scrappers Dream; Cutting Torch - Page 4

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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirscrapalot View Post
    I'm just curious why it's a big secret about the torch used....I mean I can understand a buyer, or whatnot, but a torch?

    Don't ask me where I get my hammer, cause I ain't telling!

    Sirscrapalot - Can't we all just get along? - Rodney King
    Because the only thing he has is his setup. I don't care if you know I run, doubt matter. My Abillty to produce the scrap far out weighs this. My Abillty to buy, sell, trade, can't buy that anywhere.

    Psp- why don't you more pics like this


    On here instead of on the rail road forums ?

    Last edited by taterjuice; 02-16-2014 at 12:46 AM.
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  2. #62
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    Tater..ya lost me with that last part. Heh.

    I understand folks protecting their selling source, but can't fathom why one wouldn't want to share your awesome tool. Someone asks me where I got a tool I enjoy I'd be telling them all day long.

    Ah well, one more mystery in life.

    Sirscrapalot - Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. - Dr.Seuss
    Last edited by Sirscrapalot; 02-16-2014 at 12:26 AM. Reason: Changed wording

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  4. #63
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    Google pistone scrap processing sir, than you'll know what I'm talking bout. He's got a few threads on a rail road forum.

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  6. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirscrapalot View Post
    Tater..ya lost me with that last part. Heh.

    I understand folks protecting their selling source, but can't fathom why one wouldn't want to share your awesome tool. Someone asks me where I got a tool I enjoy I'd be telling them all day long.

    Ah well, one more mystery in life.

    Sirscrapalot - Don't cry because it's over. Smile because it happened. - Dr.Seuss


    Most scrappers WANT to share their awesome tool....
    F1 Recycles

    Electronic/Electrical/Mechanical Recycling
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  8. #65
    Patriot76 started this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spinroch View Post
    Most scrappers WANT to share their awesome tool....
    Not if you are shy.

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  10. #66
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    Shyness is NOT a desirable trait for being in this business.
    People may laugh at me, but that's ok. I laugh all the way to the bank.

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  12. #67
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    I don't think shy is a term used to describe PSP..lol. Lest not in the time I've been here.

    I dunno, guess I just ain't smart enough to figure it out. Ha ha. Oh well back to pondering bigger mysteries of Universe..like..how come you can go through a ten item or less line with a 24 pack of beer an a dozen eggs.



    Sirscrapalot - I think it's wrong that only one company makes the game Monopoly. - Steven Wright

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  14. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirscrapalot View Post
    Oh well back to pondering bigger mysteries of Universe..like..how come you can go through a ten item or less line with a 24 pack of beer an a dozen eggs.
    Noticed the other day that our store changed their signage to say "About 15 Items or Less".
    Recyclable Material Merchant Wholesaler
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    "Give them enough so they can do something with it, but not too much that they won't do nothing."

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  16. #69
    Patriot76 started this thread.
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    Miller/Smith Torches have been picked up directly from the factory. This is a display case when you enter the building showing some of the original products they made. Earlier it was pointed out that gasoline and propane would be used with liquid oxygen. Now I am experimenting with natural gas. This is being considered because the building will have to be plumbed anyway for heat. The owner of the building offered to plumb the building for natural gas right away, if we want to cut with it. This has presented another learning curve, experiment, and opportunity. So far I have cut with acetylene, propane, propylene, diesel fuel, gasoline, kerosene, and now natural gas. Next challenge will be jet fuel and white gas when I grow up.

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  18. #70
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    This may explain why we are looking at natural gas as a fuel for cutting.

    Residential Energy Cost Comparison
    The costs of various forms of energy are calculated in several different ways. This can make it difficult for consumers to compare the actual cost of the energy fuel they are using. The following information compares the retail prices of various forms of energy on an equal basis.
    Average BTU* content for various energy fuels:

    Natural Gas 100,000 Btu per Therm

    Kerosene 135,000 Btu per Gallon

    Propane Gas (LP) 91,500 Btu per Gallon

    Electricity 3,413 Btu per Kilowatt Hour (KWH)


    Amount of fuel required to obtain one million Btu:

    Natural Gas 10 Therms per million Btu

    Kerosene 7.4 Gallons per million Btu

    Propane Gas (LP) 11 Gallons per million Btu

    Electricity 293 KWH per million Btu


    Form of Energy Units to obtain one million BTU Substitute your present cost ** Cost per Million BTU

    Natural Gas 10 Therms x $1.01 (Heat Only Rate) $10.10

    Natural Gas 10 Therms x $0.91 (Year Round Rate) $9.10

    Kerosene 7.4 Gallons x $3.75 $27.75

    Propane Gas (LP) 11 Gallons x $3.50 $38.50

    Electricity 293 KWH x $0.085 $24.91





    * Btu stands for British Thermal Unit.
    ** Costs shown reflect local energy prices as of February 2014
    Copyright © 2014 ERPUD. All rights reserved.
    Revised: 3/6/2014

  19. #71
    Patriot76 started this thread.
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    An apology is needed. A previous post about experimenting with natural gas was placed somewhere on the forum, but I cannot find it. The owner offered to plumb the building with natural gas, if we could cut with it. Reference the previous post. After experiments and research, it is possible and cheap. But it takes longer to heat metal and is not as efficient, therefore it does not make economical sense to use it on a project of this size. It might be worth while to use it once a while, if cutting is limited. You can use the same setup used for propane including the tips and gauges.

  20. #72
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    No apology needed...you're trying to think outside of the box, and for this particular thought process it looked promising but didn't lead anywhere. No big deal. You're out a little time in your investigation, that's all. But you are a little more knowledgeable in the process.

    I tip my hat to you because you are coming back with the information for the forum, both if its good or bad. That's very valuable for future people on the forum following your threads, say, 2 years down the road.

    Please keep the photos coming-- even just general interest ones--scrap coming out of the building, interesting old machines in there, etc!

    Thanks, Patriot76!!

    Jon.

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  22. #73
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    Just an update on our progress with the torches. We have 15 Smith torches and 5 Petrogen torches. Both companies gave our crew clinics on their equipment and we are burning better than ever. Each burner has their own tip, regulators, and tool box with necessary tools. This saves running around looking for something.

    Since they all have their own tip, they have to come to me to get a new one, if they ruin one. This allows us to figure out why they went bad. They take better care of them and clean them regularly. At the start everyone repaired the own hoses. Now hoses are made from reels of hose and ready to go. To get a new hose they have to bring in their old one and explain why it is bad. We are continually learning and getting better.

    All but two individuals on the crew had not used a torch before starting. We started at 10 % efficiency in cutting ability and gas/equipment usage and now are around 65%. When we can all read metal and practice all safety procedures we will be pushing 90%. One of the burners before the job started is now the worst burner. He spends all of his time running equipment and does not get to cut. I am in the same boat, but I am able to grab a torch once in while for a tough cut or give a lesson.

    Every other Saturday I open the facility to teach torching techniques and allow laborers to practice. When they get good enough they get a raise in pay and become a burner. Saturdays are our own time. Their advantage is they learn a new skill and can earn more pay, our advantage we have better cutters.
    Last edited by Patriot76; 05-04-2014 at 02:50 PM.

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  24. #74
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    Just posted some pictures on the main thread and thought it was a good time to share our basic cutting strategies. These do not work in all situations, but when followed save on equipment, increase safety, and are more efficient. The crew has the right to over rule the basics, but they must be able to explain why following them are not in any ones best interest.

    1. Watch your sparks and your cut at the same time. If you cannot see the sparks flowing 180 degrees from the tip, something is wrong. This reduces the chances they will throw sparks on someone else, start a fire, and ensures they are getting a clean cut the first time.

    2. Start cutting away from your fuel and oxygen and work your way back. This is important for a couple of reasons. First is allows you to plan a strategy, clear a path, and lay out your hose. Second, working your way back to the tanks ensures your hose is not sitting below something your are cutting. Not only can hot metal ruin a hose, but sparks damage the hose over time.

    3. Cut the bottom of a hanging pipe first. We have lots of one inch and two inch thick pipes and when the sides and top are cut first slag pools in the bottom, making it tough to cut last. Not only is it easier to cut first, you also create a place for slag to escape. We use a lazy W cutting technique to cut the large pipe to make sure it is cut correctly the first time. There is little worse than finishing a cut and then finding out it's hung up. Worse than having to look for it is to make the last cut from the direction it will fall.

    4. Cut the hardest part first (usually the bottom because it is an overhead cut) and try to make the safest cut last. One technique we use on large pieces is cutting everything but the last inch. Then with a partner you start cutting the last inch and then let off the oxygen and let the metal cut itself. This allows us to better read which way it wants to go and gives us more time to react.

    5. Always develop a strategy on a piece before you start cutting. This limits down time trying to decide what you will cut next. On new challenges we will team up on it, discussing different strategies and possibilities. We ask the torchers to identify what they think will happen and all take educated guesses. If it is not going according to plan, we regroup and come up with an alternative strategy. Those flying solo or refuse suggestions are quickly moved to laborer. Those that know it all are seldom the ones hurt, it is usually the by standers.



    Please share any ideas or suggestions you might have. You can never have to much information at your disposal.
    Last edited by Patriot76; 05-11-2014 at 04:48 PM.

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  26. #75
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    Fun Tip:

    I have a hard time keeping cold drinks ready throughout the day. Two solutions that have proved valuable as the weather warms. First when arriving on site in the morning, Mt. Dew and Gatorade are placed on our hardest burning torches liquid oxygen tank. The harder it is used, the colder the tank gets. Others have discovered this secret, but they all know to stay away from the tanks I use. They also know if my beverages are on their tanks, they will be cutting non-stop throughout the day. They feel proud because they know they will not be pulled off a torch to move metal because my drinks will get warm.

    A safety valve if the tank selected is not used all day long is a fire extinguisher. Blasting the beverage will instantly cool it.

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  28. #76

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    Theres something that ive never seen. A couple of baby Harris torches that are new. I have one aty the yard that I use to cut 24 inch mill rolls with.Nice rigs

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  30. #77

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    I have tested many burners in my day,and its always on pipe. You start from the top and work your way down. When you get to the bottom,put on a big weave on till it blows through the bottom and out the other side. Start back from the top and meet the cut on the bottom from the other side. I can always tell former fitters by the way they cut pipe.Starting from the bottom makes a slow cut and I would never hire the guy. When I started as a burner,I was always taught that "a fitter can never burn and a burner can never fit"
    If you are getting slag in the bottom of the pipe,it means you are using way to low of oxy pressure
    As far as tips go: use a bulldog style tip for your torches. They are much tougher and should last about 6 months with a good burner. The americans also call them "fast preheat tips" These work the best with natural gas
    Last edited by hmburner; 05-19-2014 at 06:02 PM.

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  32. #78

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    Hate to be long winded,but one more thought.
    When cutting pipe overhead,leave a tack or small uncut section somewhere near the top. Its like cutting a tree,leave your tack in the direction you want the pipe to fall. This is where a 3 ft torch is handy. Even with planning and teamwork having too many guys in the work area becomes dangerous. When dropping large sections,you never know what they will hit or shift on the way down. Also in a steam plant,all the pipe hangers are not for vibration but for and contraction. Over the years they can build up stress,so be careful. Of all the ships I have cut,the engine room is a mass of pipe. We always cut with two burners: one port side and one starboard,this way I dont have to be forever watching underneath me.
    On the job you are on,I assume this was a coal fired plant. You will run into a bunch of mangenese to cut. Pick one burner to do this,give him a big pay raise and nickname him "Blacky" coal dust is explosive but rarely burns. After blacky has hads a few dust explosions and filled the plant with dust,he will get the hang of it.

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  34. #79
    Patriot76 started this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hmburner View Post
    I have tested many burners in my day,and its always on pipe. You start from the top and work your way down. When you get to the bottom,put on a big weave on till it blows through the bottom and out the other side. Start back from the top and meet the cut on the bottom from the other side. I can always tell former fitters by the way they cut pipe.Starting from the bottom makes a slow cut and I would never hire the guy. When I started as a burner,I was always taught that "a fitter can never burn and a burner can never fit"
    If you are getting slag in the bottom of the pipe,it means you are using way to low of oxy pressure
    As far as tips go: use a bulldog style tip for your torches. They are much tougher and should last about 6 months with a good burner. The americans also call them "fast preheat tips" These work the best with natural gas
    This is interesting and something I will try tomorrow. No matter how high I have turned the oxygen, I could not prevent the slag from pooling at the bottom of the pipe. The pipe we are cutting ranges from 2 inch to four inch thick. The weave you talk about is called a lazy w on this sight. We use it on the bottom of the pipe to allow the slag to blow through and on dangerous cuts that we want to ensure they are free before we move on. The rookies use their arms to cut the weave, the average burners use their wrists, but the best burners use their finger tips to finish this cut. It is much more efficient and cost effective. The difference is 1/2 inch cuts verses 1/4 inch cuts.

    When this project started all but 2 of the 16 burners were taught from scratch. Now 80% can cut better than I can. They spend 8 hours a day behind a torch and I spend 8 hours a day behind a computer and smart phone. They share ideas and secrets and get better by the hour. It is all about teamwork. Working myself out of a job.

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    If it was me cutting 4 inch wall pipe: Put a #12 fast preheat tip in my 3 ft Airco torch (this torch has been with me a lot of years). Bottom out my propane regulator (should give me about 35 lbs of propane) turn on pressure building on oxy tank and crank up oxy to 175 (I have a high flow oxy regulator) Blow through top of pipe and slowly lean torch over to a 45 degree angle while weaving. On heavy wall like that your kerf should be about 1 inch wide. When I get to the bottom,slow down and pour the oxy on. You will hear a very quiet pop when it blows through the other side.Continue cutting bottom which should now be about a 10 inch thick cut (you are now cutting both sides plus the bottom) If the other end of the pipe is uncut,do not cut the pipe on a 90 but rather a 45 so it drops free and doesnt jam coming loose. Cutting from a scaffold is a lot safer than a ladder in this case. Leave a 1 inch tack on top and cut down other side. Push scaffold back and reach out to cut tack( things get hairy when the pipe hits the scaffold) As i remember in my early days of burning: the boss screaming at me from the crane "its not cut if you cant see through it". All burners are a wild bunch,who all count on the faster they cut,the more they get paid. Family men do not make good burners I have found,since they have other things on their mind. Of all the years I have been at this,burning is always slow on thursday and saturday morning since its a time honored tradition that burners get drunk on wednesday and friday nights. They all drink together making them a very close knit family. I no longer do this since im a friend of Bill W (AA)
    Time to take the doggie out for a walk and hope I have been of some help.
    In closing,if your regulator on your oxy tank is freezing up,the evaporator on the tank is no good and does in the regulator. Gas suppliers are notorious for saying its your fault. Weld up caps on a chunk of 6 inch pipe with fittings for a hose from the tank and mount your regulator on top. You now have a home made evaporator. A tank of liquid oxy should last two days and 100 lb tank of propane 5 days
    Now Annie the pigdog is doing her dance so I have to go

    Happy burning and hope I was of some help

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