Freon safety warning!!!!!

This is not to discuss the right and wrong way to drain/recover freon... this is more a warning for everyones safety

I was talking to the owner of the scrap yard today and he warned me to be very carefull if I ever handle anythingfreon... wear a full face shield, and not just goggles... long sleaves and gloves... he told me about a customer who was blinded because of it... he said it sprayed into his eye and instantly FROZE!!!!! his eye and was blinded...

so no matter if you are draining freon right or wrong, whatever you do, please protect yourself against a preventable accident

Boyle's Law

also never put a flame to it to cut the lines or dismantle the compressor because when you burn freon in an open flame it creates phosgene gas which was used as a chemical weapon in world war 1 it will stop your heart from beating real quick.

respirator is probably a good idea too no? i always wear one when i break those lines. fridge, ac etc i dont like the idea of breathing that **** either. anything your are unsure of better safe then sorry. a gas shock on a computer chair shot a chunk of plastic at my face when i didnt think before i put the sawsall to it, **** near broke my nose i was bleeding pretty good. another time i was dissembling a lawnmower engine with a hilti sfh-18A (best tool ever btw) again not thinking i wasnt holding the engine i pulled the trigger on the drill to undo a bolt (it puts out 65 ft/lbs) swung the mower around 3-4 times and smashed me in the ankle not related but my point is before you do anything that could be hazordous THINK IT THROUGH

Quote:

---

respirator is probably a good idea too no? i always wear one when i break those lines. fridge, ac etc i dont like the idea of breathing that **** either.

---

I hope your not venting that crap into the air, reclaim it properly please.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mechanic688

I hope your not venting that crap into the air, reclaim it properly please.

---

dude managed to blast himself in the eyeball with it. obviously accidents happen i would always rather be safe then bleeding/blinded/ otherwise in danger. i wear my respirator to avoid breathing ANY. 90% of the hvac i deal with has already leaked out over time functional units i sell but the odd time i have to deal with a system that is still charged with green goo and gas

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by steve129

dude managed to blast himself in the eyeball with it. obviously accidents happen i would always rather be safe then bleeding/blinded/ otherwise in danger. i wear my respirator to avoid breathing ANY. 90% of the hvac i deal with has already leaked out over time functional units i sell but the odd time i have to deal with a system that is still charged with green goo and gas

---

Don't know how it is in Canada, but in the US it's illegal to release refrigerant. I believe that's partly what Mech was driving at.

Yeah, I agree. If you are willing to spend the money on respirators and face masks, better use of said money would be to get the proper gear and license to reclaim. QUIT BREAKING FREON LINES!!!

whats freon

Doy, it is DuPont's brand name of their refrigerants.

i dont deal with enough of it or have $350-600 for an hvac fluid recovery system.... i already had respirators, gloves, goggles etc and those things cost far less. how many ac rads and fridges would i have to reclaim before i broke even on that.... our climate eats ac lines and condensers anyway and by the time i get a car its usually allready been vented into the atmosphere over time. i snap the lines and not much comes out. $300 cars do not come with functional ac. when a scrap yard here buys a car and they crane it into a pile if the ac system is charged what happens? is it drained properly? no its thrown in a giant pile of smashed cars whatever systems get punctured leak there fluids im sure this happens with thousands of cars a year so please dont point your finger at me. make your judgements, hate me, whatever your guna do. it is what it is and i am not the only one, just one of many unemployed trying to scrape by

i want to become epa section 608 certified so i can do it safe but i think i'll have to be older.

When I first started scrapping I was at a local buis that sells/replaces a.c units, first time out I made my way to a unit for an office. I used a pair of bolt cutters and bit into the back, looking to rip out the copper next to the condenser etc. A massive blast (this thing was bigger than a fridge) of I'm guessing Freon, engulfed me in a deafening shriek of discharge, scared the $hit outta me, no gloves, no googles, no clue. Needless to say, I raced home, and googled if I was going to die or not, turns out it's not that positions, unless exposed to it for a long time. Eyes didn't freeze shut either. I did have a ringing headache for the rest of the night.
Whoever was watching the CCTV the next day must've had a right laugh.....
Rule learned? Check what your cutting into, it could be your last cut........

Poisonous*
Needless to say, I still come across, undrained units, I leave them alone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by steve129

i dont deal with enough of it or have $350-600 for an hvac fluid recovery system.... i already had respirators, gloves, goggles etc and those things cost far less. how many ac rads and fridges would i have to reclaim before i broke even on that.... our climate eats ac lines and condensers anyway and by the time i get a car its usually allready been vented into the atmosphere over time. i snap the lines and not much comes out. $300 cars do not come with functional ac. when a scrap yard here buys a car and they crane it into a pile if the ac system is charged what happens? is it drained properly? no its thrown in a giant pile of smashed cars whatever systems get punctured leak there fluids im sure this happens with thousands of cars a year so please dont point your finger at me. make your judgements, hate me, whatever your guna do. it is what it is and i am not the only one, just one of many unemployed trying to scrape by

---

The AC units I have run across have had their recharge line cut with a side cutter which makes a opening small enough to allow the refrigerant to discharge slowly over a couple of days. It reduces the danger of a high pressure discharge to nearly zero. While I do not condone the release of refrigerant into the air, the fact remains that every molecule of refrigerant produced will eventually escape into the atmosphere.... and they keep making more, so it can't be that much of a problem in real life. The benefits MUST outweigh the costs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by t00nces2

The AC units I have run across have had their recharge line cut with a side cutter which makes a opening small enough to allow the refrigerant to discharge slowly over a couple of days. It reduces the danger of a high pressure discharge to nearly zero. While I do not condone the release of refrigerant into the air, the fact remains that every molecule of refrigerant produced will eventually escape into the atmosphere.... and they keep making more, so it can't be that much of a problem in real life. The benefits MUST outweigh the costs.

---

No offense, but they same thing about 99% of all chemical discharge..... From crude oil, to nuclear, "the pros out weigh the cons" ....no they don't, and never will.....we only have one Earth, we need to look after her..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BDAScrapper

No offense, but they same thing about 99% of all chemical discharge..... From crude oil, to nuclear, "the pros out weigh the cons" ....no they don't, and never will.....we only have one Earth, we need to look after her..

---

Are you so committed to the point of view that you do not use air conditioning or a refrigerator?

Inside the compressors theres a bunch of valves and such.
They can trap the oil with Freon inside it for more than a day.
When the comprssor is shifted, the oil can move around, the valves can open enough for some oil to move about..
And suddenly you can get a spurt of oil/gas out of a open tube.

Even if you think theres no oil in there, tip it over and suddenly you have a oil leak.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by t00nces2

The AC units I have run across have had their recharge line cut with a side cutter which makes a opening small enough to allow the refrigerant to discharge slowly over a couple of days. It reduces the danger of a high pressure discharge to nearly zero. While I do not condone the release of refrigerant into the air, the fact remains that every molecule of refrigerant produced will eventually escape into the atmosphere.... and they keep making more, so it can't be that much of a problem in real life. The benefits MUST outweigh the costs.

---

The cons always outweigh the pros when it comes to refrigerants.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by logansryche

The cons always outweigh the pros when it comes to refrigerants.

---

So, are you so committed to the point of view that you do not use air conditioning or a refrigerator?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by t00nces2

So, are you so committed to the point of view that you do not use air conditioning or a refrigerator?

---

How does your questioning have any merrit to the topic?

No I do not and yes I do use them, I also use fossil fuels...... Just because I use the doesn't mean I don't look for other alternatives, and try to minimize the usage of the things that are bad, for instance, our house uses Solar panels and keeps us off the grid for the most part, we use rechargeable battery's etc. I recognize the downfalls of many everyday items in-terms of impact to our environment,unfortunately it is almost impossible not to have some form of reliance on them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by logansryche

How does your questioning have any merrit to the topic?

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BDAScrapper

No I do not and yes I do use them, I also use fossil fuels...... Just because I use the doesn't mean I don't look for other alternatives, and try to minimize the usage of the things that are bad, for instance, our house uses Solar panels and keeps us off the grid for the most part, we use rechargeable battery's etc. I recognize the downfalls of many everyday items in-terms of impact to our environment,unfortunately it is almost impossible not to have some form of reliance on them.

---

logansryche... I am going to have to assume that you continue to use air conditioning and refrigeration even though you flat told me that the benefits do not outweigh the negatives. BDA, I would like to drop off the grid, but the positives of oil and refrigerants and electricity created in coal fired or nuclear plants keep me from leaving the comforts of modern life (as it seems to keep you also).

I really don't mean to slam you guys (gals? I don't know... Let's agree that the "guys" is the global "guys"), but you took a shot at my point of view. You say, no, no, no, but you do, do, do exactly what you are criticize me for doing and advocating. You are no different from Al Gore telling us we should reduce our use of oil to save the planet while blasting all over in a jet and living in a house that burns 20x (probably more) than the electricity I use for my life. You are no different than the Hollywood jerks telling us we should pay higher taxes to be more compassionate towards the less fortunate while they do everything they can to film in lower tax areas or move out of country to avoid the taxes altogether. You are no different than Charlie Rangel or John Kerry who are in charge of making us pay taxes, but avoid or fail to pay themselves.

It is all lies. If the planet is doomed, they (you) would find the way to do your part not to contribute to the dooming of the planet. The benefits DO outweigh the drawbacks or YOU WOULD NOT use the items you criticize. You say you cannot avoid using them, I say BS! There are countries where you would have no problem living life sans AC and refrigerators. Heck, there are places in this country where you could go to live your life unencumbered by the heavy toll refrigerants weigh on your lives. You live in a free country that would allow you to live as you choose. Those who want to live their lives controlled by government are free to live with people who all share their health care costs, contribute the proceeds of their labor to a pool to be shared by all, or have gas tillers or hoes denied by their collective rules.... The problem is that they are not satisfied with living their lives as they believe is best, they must use the point of a gun to enforce their "beneficial" beliefs on everyone else. It is not about saving a doomed planet, it is about solving and unequal distribution of wealth by replacing it with an unequal distribution of power and control.

Oh well, I won't buy into the line.
[/RANT]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by t00nces2

logansryche... I am going to have to assume that you continue to use air conditioning and refrigeration even though you flat told me that the benefits do not outweigh the negatives. BDA, I would like to drop off the grid, but the positives of oil and refrigerants and electricity created in coal fired or nuclear plants keep me from leaving the comforts of modern life (as it seems to keep you also).

I really don't mean to slam you guys (gals? I don't know... Let's agree that the "guys" is the global "guys"), but you took a shot at my point of view. You say, no, no, no, but you do, do, do exactly what you are criticize me for doing and advocating. You are no different from Al Gore telling us we should reduce our use of oil to save the planet while blasting all over in a jet and living in a house that burns 20x (probably more) than the electricity I use for my life. You are no different than the Hollywood jerks telling us we should pay higher taxes to be more compassionate towards the less fortunate while they do everything they can to film in lower tax areas or move out of country to avoid the taxes altogether. You are no different than Charlie Rangel or John Kerry who are in charge of making us pay taxes, but avoid or fail to pay themselves.

It is all lies. If the planet is doomed, they (you) would find the way to do your part not to contribute to the dooming of the planet. The benefits DO outweigh the drawbacks or YOU WOULD NOT use the items you criticize. You say you cannot avoid using them, I say BS! There are countries where you would have no problem living life sans AC and refrigerators. Heck, there are places in this country where you could go to live your life unencumbered by the heavy toll refrigerants weigh on your lives. You live in a free country that would allow you to live as you choose. Those who want to live their lives controlled by government are free to live with people who all share their health care costs, contribute the proceeds of their labor to a pool to be shared by all, or have gas tillers or hoes denied by their collective rules.... The problem is that they are not satisfied with living their lives as they believe is best, they must use the point of a gun to enforce their "beneficial" beliefs on everyone else. It is not about saving a doomed planet, it is about solving and unequal distribution of wealth by replacing it with an unequal distribution of power and control.

Oh well, I won't buy into the line.
[/RANT]

---

I will leave it as you and I will stay at odds on some things, and I will cease conversing with you after this if you liken me to a "jerk".
Im not getting into an argue net with you on a scrap forum, we don't agree with each other, and I'm leaving it at that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BDAScrapper

I will leave it as you and I will stay at odds on some things, and I will cease conversing with you after this if you liken me to a "jerk".
Im not getting into an argue net with you on a scrap forum, we don't agree with each other, and I'm leaving it at that.

---

Sorry BDA, I did not intend to call you a jerk. But I will stand by my opinion that if you are still using products that use refrigeranst, the benefits outweigh the negatives, even in your eyes, despite your protests.

If you are ever in Sarasota, let me know and I will buy you a beer as a tangible expression of an apology.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by t00nces2

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3]logansryche... I am going to have to assume that you continue to use air conditioning and refrigeration even though you flat told me that the benefits do not outweigh the negatives. BDA, I would like to drop off the grid, but the positives of oil and refrigerants and electricity created in coal fired or nuclear plants keep me from leaving the comforts of modern life (as it seems to keep you also).

---

Now that your intention is a bit more clear, no I do not use air conditioning. The house I live in has high enough insulation where it says cool in the summer time and warm in the winter. We do have central heat hooked up and a hot water heater but if for some reason it gets too toasty we turn down the heat or turn on a fan. Not starting anything, just responding.

-Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by logansryche

Now that your intention is a bit more clear, no I do not use air conditioning. The house I live in has high enough insulation where it says cool in the summer time and warm in the winter. We do have central heat hooked up and a hot water heater but if for some reason it gets too toasty we turn down the heat or turn on a fan. Not starting anything, just responding.

-Matt

---

Hello, I live in Florida, and I use air conditioning. I also use a refrigerator. There is no way to keep me and my food cold without using refrigerants. There is no way to produce a refrigerant and use it without it going into the environment. We/I have made a choice, and we/I accept the benefits as well as the consequences. You want to stop freon, cool more efficiently and I will send you money to use your product. But each and every one of us know that every ounce of freon we buy will be released into the atmosphere. Period. End of discussion. If you use the products, I doubt your belief in the dangers of using these items. I would not use something I thought was a imminent danger to someone. To deny the use of refrigerants or to push for the abolition of refrigerants would hurt way more people than using refrigerants. People will die without refrigerants. It lacks compassion to deny people the use of refrigerants. I would not deny the people who live in cold climates the use of coal to heat their homes cheaply. To deny those in cold climates the cheap use of coal to heat their homes lacks compassion, and we all know who wants to outlaw coal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by t00nces2

Hello, I live in Florida, and I use air conditioning. I also use a refrigerator. There is no way to keep me and my food cold without using refrigerants. There is no way to produce a refrigerant and use it without it going into the environment. We/I have made a choice, and we/I accept the benefits as well as the consequences. You want to stop freon, cool more efficiently and I will send you money to use your product. But each and every one of us know that every ounce of freon we buy will be released into the atmosphere. Period. End of discussion. If you use the products, I doubt your belief in the dangers of using these items. I would not use something I thought was a imminent danger to someone. To deny the use of refrigerants or to push for the abolition of refrigerants would hurt way more people than using refrigerants. People will die without refrigerants. It lacks compassion to deny people the use of refrigerants. I would not deny the people who live in cold climates the use of coal to heat their homes cheaply. To deny those in cold climates the cheap use of coal to heat their homes lacks compassion, and we all know who wants to outlaw coal.

---

So either of us don't shoot our mouths off, I think it's best we make up and call it a draw.

-Matt

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by logansryche

So either of us don't shoot our mouths off, I think it's best we make up and call it a draw.

-Matt

---

You would also be welcome in Sarasota for a beer on me.

Quote:

---

So either of us don't shoot our mouths off, I think it's best we make up and call it a draw.

-Matt

---

Quote:

---

You would also be welcome in Sarasota for a beer on me.

---

http://sr.photos2.fotosearch.com/bth.../bld013732.jpg

For those interested, there are in fact non greenhouse gas, ozone destroying refrigerants out there and they have been in use although not that popular, for many years.
One is propane.
It's pure propane and one company , amoung others , Hychill, market it .

HyChill - Home

It's just refined propane with the water that is supposedly in regular propane taken out and filters to 1 UM or something. It is a direct replacement for most of the current gas formulations. The pressures are a bit different but apart from that it works somewhat better than the mainstream refrigerants and is cheaper.

For some reason,they are forever changing gas standards in equipment but I'm buggered if I know why this stuff isn't in wider use. I tend to think it is because of financial kickbacks and profits over anything else. They make new gasses to do exactly what propane will and contrary to poipular misconception, several on the current mainstream gasses ARE flameable and the others will burn with by broducts that will stop you getting burned by killing you with their toxins when burnt first.

Like I said, Propane ( and Butane) dreivatives have been used for years, even in the states and in vehicles. And, before anyone starts with the typical fearmongering " It will blow up in an accident" drama, in 50K vehicle accidents where the AC system was filled with this stuff or a derivative, not one single solitary instance of a fire let alone explosion has been recorded. Makes me laugh how people get funny about 300Grams of Lpg in the AC when their arese's are sitting on 70 L of petrol or the same amount of LPG in every taxi in this country and a heap more in the private fleet.

I have tested LPG as a refrigerant in several cars myself and have it in my own ATM. I works well and only half the amount and pressure in the system are required. The only thing I found with changing from a 134a System is to make sure there is plenty of oil in the system which people neglect when topping up AC systems.
My house AC is running low atm and as soon as I get my gauge set back I'm going to top it up with LPG as well.


On the subject of AC systems, I can't for the life of me understand why anyone would cut into one without checking it first. Vehicles have to schrader valves on them you can press with a stick or something to test if there is pressure. Those handling these things regularly would be smart to go spend $50 on a gauge set then you can couple them on and see what pressure they have.

As a word of warning, if ever anyone just hacks into the new high pressure systems they won't know a thing about it. They are running 500PSI+ on the high side which is a lot more than the 150 or so of regular systems. The copper has all increased in thickness to handle the extra pressure and so have the fittings. These systems are common on VFD units which can be multiple evaporators off the one condensor unit. This cuts down on packaging and cost as you can have multiple evaporators running off the one head unit.

Old AC Systems are often " Pumped Down" with domestic units which means all the gas is pumped into the condensor ( outdoor unit) . Just because the pipes through the house may appear to have low to no pressure dosen't meant the Condensor unit has. Open that baby up without it being properly drained and you'll know about it as well. Pumping down and de gassing/ reclaiming/ recovery are very different things. Again, a cheap gauge set and knowing how to open the valves and pressure test before cutting into the lines to get to the compressor or condensor itself would be a really smart and fundamental thing to ensure your continued well being.

It should also be known that exposure to a common variety of gas can cause blindness. You don't have to be sprayed in the face with it either. I have a mate who is an AC tech and a pretty rough all round guy but I have seen him head for the hills when he smells this stuff and for him to be scared of it, I reckon I would be smart to be also.

I'm no safety sissy but to touch an AC without seeing what is in it gas and pressure wise is idiotic.
Enviromental concerns are one thing, saftey is another, self presevation is something different again and what it boils down to with these things.

glumpy- How is propane different from methane? Methane is a fairly potent greenhouse gas and greenhouse gas issues are different from "ozone depleting" issues so if we (or an individual) switches from "freon" to propane and propane escapes unburned, aren't we (or that individual person) swapping one problem for another?? Maybe propane is different enough from methane that it doesn't cause greenhouse effects but they're both a burnable hydrocarbon so....

I agree alot with t00nces2 (wow, that's the mouthful of a handle!). People lived along time without either refrigerants or a/c (both are less than a 150 years in use). A good number of people around the world still do but most of us wouldn't go back to the old ways so those items are here to stay. Personally, I think its another way governments are screwed up (and let me remind you all that I work for a government). They allow such "hazardous" waste to be sold in common customer items (I'm sure big retailers send lots of campaign checks to politicians) but then don't fund systems for the common, occasional person who wants to recycle at least something out of this consumer products but don't have the resources to be a full blown business that can recover everything. So instead of the US EPA running around with a hard-on for some guy who cuts the lines of a couple of a/c units a year to fine them the magical $37,000 fine (nice round number, wonder where they pulled that out of??), why doesn't the EPA give out community block grants to cities where the occasional scrapper can take an a/c unit and get it drained properly of freon?? But of course they won't because they would rather spend their budget on lawyers (many in the EPA are lawyers who just love to parse words) or typical pr**ck bureaucrat who gets off by beating up on people because they can. So, in my opinion, a lot of what t00nces2 says about it being mostly a power thing is correct. So governments can raise their hands and say its "not our problem" when they want to (the selling of consumer products with hazardous materials at retail stores) but then get heavy when they can beat up on people, especially those who aren't greasing their political masters palms with $$

t00nces2- If I'm ever in your area, I'll stop and have a beer with you but I don't need the group hug thing...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by t00nces2

The AC units I have run across have had their recharge line cut with a side cutter which makes a opening small enough to allow the refrigerant to discharge slowly over a couple of days. It reduces the danger of a high pressure discharge to nearly zero. While I do not condone the release of refrigerant into the air, the fact remains that every molecule of refrigerant produced will eventually escape into the atmosphere.... and they keep making more, so it can't be that much of a problem in real life. The benefits MUST outweigh the costs.

---

What do you base this statement on. I for one would like to see the data that supports this statement. Not disagreeing, but I like facts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DakotaRog

glumpy- How is propane different from methane?

---

I don't know. I have only researched and learned about refrigeration not about the composition of the gasses or environmental effects. All I can tell you is what I have read in educating myself on refrigeration and what is stated in places like the Hychill site.

Typically enough, while there is no law here anyways against venting propane and anyne can buy it, even in tins in the supermarket, once you put it in an AC system, it' becomes a refrigerant and you are supposed to be licenced to handle it and the same fines apply if you vent it or reclaim it without being properly licenced.

YA! Hit me with that one and see how far you get. I wouldn't even bother contacting a lawyer to defend myself against that one. The political embarrasment angle alone of why all car AC units that I would be working on weren't legislated to use it would be enough to make them drop the case.

That's why I'm pretty much anti environmental.
It's a complete load of utter and complete Bullship. Lip service is paid to the principals only where it can make a buck for big Biz or gubbermints. The rest is ignored.

Save energy, recycle, don't fart... Blah , blah blah.
My Brother in law runs a waste transfer facility . What you see there would make you cry. Recently there were several containers full of clothes that were dumped. Why? Because the bar code on the tag was wrong. Forget about re-tagging them or ajusting the computer that reads them, no, We'll just dump them. There was a load of Mobile phones a while back. Dumped because they were superceeded models. Can't sell the old ones when the new one is out! Perish the thought!
How much energy, resources, power and emissions went in to makeing those things that is now all just completely Squandered? They paid EXTRA for the things to be minced up while a bunch of company officials watched. A friend of mine who workes for a major phone company said she went to one where they dug a huge deep pit and poured them in then covered them all up in a dump. Bloody criminal and a complete insult to the whole " Save the planert" BS.

I picked up a load of solar inverters of all things that were dumped. I actually rang the distributor here acting dumb and said what was the difference between the old and the new model. Were they more efficent? Should I chuck my old one and get the new one? No, EXACT same thing only the cover of the new one is more " Stylish". The guts of the thing are exactly the same.
I could go on about machinery and furniture and LED lighting, solar panels and all manner of stuff dumped in the same way.

And after seeing all this first hand, My intelligence is insulted with crap about a bit of gas from my AC escaping or I have to run those stupid CF light globes to save power and I have to pay more for that power for it to be generated from renewable sources. Give me a break!!!

Heres a RADICAL idea..... How about we ban this perfectly good product dumping that had vast amounts of energy and resources ploughed into it thats now going to be ploughed back into landfill? You make it, you sell it all, not dump it.
No unessacary waste allowed for the sake of style, marketing...... Whatever. If the goods aren't dangerously Faulty, you sell them not waste the resources that went into making them.

I Know, something logical, reasonable, obvious and No cost like that will never catch on. It would be too effective and get to the heart of the problem.
Thats why I think the whole green movement is a complete crock.

/Rant.

Cool!!! Yes, I think retailers get away with a lot of stuff and never get called on it because their "economic impacts". Their "economic impacts" is that we all pay for higher prices for products when the dump good stuff because its out of style or whatever. Meanwhile they're little corporate groupies can put out some pc pr statements about how much good they're doing for the planet. but I'm sure I'm a hypocrite because their stocks are in my retirement group investment portfolios and I don't go and purposely change out of them and I still occasionally go to be national big corporate retailers, so, yeah, life is complex and conflicting...