Demo of a big commercial watertube boiler (15' tall)

Hey, I'm new here. Found the forum while searching for info on exactly what's inside big fairly modern boilers. I couldn't find an answer after searching, so here's the situation.

I've been offered the opportunity to quote cutting up and removing a big natural-gas fired watertube boiler made by English Boiler & Tube in 1996. I know the replacement weighs 82k lbs, and this one can't be hauled straight to the yard because of it's 15' height. Someone else would be removing the boiler from the building; I would be working in the parking lot.

My first question is, what's going to be inside? Anything valuable, or all steel and cast iron? Pretty sure I can make keeping the scrap a condition of the quote.

Has anybody scrapped one of these onsite before? I've got oxypropane torches, a demo saw, a 5k and a 12k forklift, a Kubota articulating loader, and a tri-axle 20' equipment trailer. I don't have any employees, just a self-employed structural welder here. I can obviously weld lift eyes onto stuff and I've got rigging experience. How much time does it take to break one of these down?

Any other ideas or help would be much appreciated. Just not sure how to go about bidding something like this.

Google Image Search (Picture is worth a thousand words): https://www.google.com/search?q=commercial+boiler I've found picture examples and working schemas. :)

About going inside to tear it apart, I am no expert, but I don't see anything valuable inside that justify to do it. If I refer to regular hot water tanks, it is just heating elements inside a cast iron tank with insulation. The only valuable parts are the brass valves and power wires. Maybe a commercial unit would be too big to easily move as a whole and maybe the yard would want you to part it in smaller parts or they'll pay you the oversize cutting torch rate. It depends on how much you want to spend time and gas on it versus your return on investment. Cast iron / steel doesn't pay much and o/s cutting torch pays the 2/3 of regular shred rate. Also, expect to drain it first as it would remove lots of dead weight. I hope that it helps you a bit.

Could be stainless tubes inside.

Boiler built in 1996 - Asbestos insulation. Run away from it.

I thought asbestos wasn't an issue in the '90's? Was that just residential construction and not commercial?

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Originally Posted by Welder

I thought asbestos wasn't an issue in the '90's? Was that just residential construction and not commercial?

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Is Asbestos Banned in the United States?

No, asbestos is not banned in the U.S. While attempts have been made to ban it over the years, the U.S. continues to import and use asbestos. Nearly 114 metric tons of asbestos were imported in the first three months of 2022, according to the United States International Trade Commission, exceeding the 100 metric tons imported in all of 2021. Although imports continue, asbestos has not been mined in the U.S. since 2002.

They obviously got the boiler transported to the current site and have now managed to move it outdoors into the parking lot. Any equipment hauler with a lowboy trailer could handle the move to the scrap yard.

Let the yard deal with it, grab the money and run.

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Originally Posted by Welder

I thought asbestos wasn't an issue in the '90's? Was that just residential construction and not commercial?

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Quite honestly .... i don't think that anyone here has any experience with a boiler of that size. You probably know more than we do.

This is the best resource i have on asbestos but it's hard to say if it will be of any help.

https://inspectapedia.com/hazmat/Asb...hoto_Guide.php

The best general advise i could offer would be: Consider taking a pass on this one. It's one thing to bid a job on something you know inside and out. The fact that you have to ask a question here means that you don't. You might be batting out of your league on this one.

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Originally Posted by alloy2

They obviously got the boiler transported to the current site and have now managed to move it outdoors into the parking lot. Any equipment hauler with a lowboy trailer could handle the move to the scrap yard.

Let the yard deal with it, grab the money and run.

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The boiler is still in place and in operation; the job isn't until November of next year. An equipment hauler is actually who contacted me; the 15' height means major work to get it under power lines and stoplights in the area it's in intact. They're thinking that it might be cheaper for the customer for me to partially demo it in place so that they can get it out of there at a transportable height.

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Originally Posted by hills

Quite honestly .... i don't think that anyone here has any experience with a boiler of that size. You probably know more than we do.

This is the best resource i have on asbestos but it's hard to say if it will be of any help.

https://inspectapedia.com/hazmat/Asb...hoto_Guide.php

The best general advise i could offer would be: Consider taking a pass on this one. It's one thing to bid a job on something you know inside and out. The fact that you have to ask a question here means that you don't. You might be batting out of your league on this one.

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Thanks to all of you who replied. I got the request to quote the job yesterday morning, and of course the company who made the boilers has been bought and sold at least twice since 1996, so I just figured the next most logical place to ask would be with people who do this sort of thing for a living. I appreciate the asbestos info; I wasn't aware it was still in use. Hopefully the last company to buy this one out still has that info. As soon as the weekend is over and normal people go back to work, I'll call the current company and try to get an idea of what I'm in for.

I'm not exactly new at demo work or even hazardous environment demo, actually have like 55 explosion-proof lights still hanging out in the back of my shop from a factory I helped demo a few years back that I think can be cleaned up and sold for a nice profit....I just never dealt with boilers before. If I end up taking the job on after doing my due diligence, I'll take some pics and post back when the time comes.

Again, really appreciate the info. I was afraid this place was dead, and I'm happy it's not. I'll stick around and if there's anything I can offer help with, I will. :)

I didn't come to me till the wake up over coffee this morning. We do have one member with experience in doing the larger jobs that could lend sound advise. He slipped my mind because there are only a few of us that are active lately. He's Patriot76. It's been a couple of months since he last logged in. You might try sending him an message through your user profile. He was always willing to help.

Here's an example of one of his posts:

https://www.scrapmetalforum.com/dism...r-removal.html

Look into Oxygen Lances and liquid oxygen.

You'll have to order the liquid oxygen as your supplier only fills these cylinders on demand, once you have the cylinder use it daily as they will bleed off oxygen when not being used this is how the thermos is kept cold. A large cylinder is equivalent to 18 large cylinders/

The last liquid cylinder I had ordered cost me $150.00.

https://i.postimg.cc/rFWSN8Rg/Screen...2-09-27-14.png

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Originally Posted by Welder

The boiler is still in place and in operation; the job isn't until November of next year. An equipment hauler is actually who contacted me; the 15' height means major work to get it under power lines and stoplights in the area it's in intact. They're thinking that it might be cheaper for the customer for me to partially demo it in place so that they can get it out of there at a transportable height.

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In that case, it will be moved as an oversized load and that means hiring road escorts and extra permits. $$$

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Originally Posted by Welder

The boiler is still in place and in operation; the job isn't until November of next year. An equipment hauler is actually who contacted me; the 15' height means major work to get it under power lines and stoplights in the area it's in intact. They're thinking that it might be cheaper for the customer for me to partially demo it in place so that they can get it out of there at a transportable height.

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With run away inflation you expect your quote is still going to hold water next November.

Perhaps we'll be well into WW3 and metals prices will skyrocket or perhaps expropriated for the effort.

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Originally Posted by alloy2

With run away inflation you expect your quote is still going to hold water next November.

Perhaps we'll be well into WW3 and metals prices will skyrocket or perhaps expropriated for the effort.

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Yes, it'll still be good because I'm not valuing the scrap at all in it. The company who bought out this manufacturer said this will have steel internals; no SS or other higher-value stuff. My quote is my full labor rate only times X amount of man-hours. If I get allowed anything for the scrap, that'll just be a bonus.

It's a hard call. Everything i've seen over the last few years suggests that we are probably in what's called an inflationary recession. It's a period of time when prices are high and money is hard to come by.

There's always a chance that the economic situation could go from bad to worse. That might be what Alloy was talking about with runaway inflation. Instead of inflation being eight or ten percent per year .... it might be something like 40% per year. Imagine the interest rate on a car loan being 53 % ? The price of a loaf of bread & a gallon of milk might double in a single month ?

It's not exactly crazy talk. It's happened plenty in other countries ... it's just never happened here in the U.S.

If it did happen here ... you might find yourself in a situation where you have to re-negotiate your hourly labor rate every so often. You might be billing $ 100.00/hr one month and have to raise your rate to $ 300.00/hr a month later.

A bid is a binding legal contract once it's been accepted. I'm not quite sure how you would do it .... but you might want to leave yourself a bit of wiggle room in case things do continue to get worse over the next year or so.

Maybe submit an estimate for the job instead ?

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Originally Posted by hills

Maybe submit an estimate for the job instead ?

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I normally don't do quotes or estimates at all; I work on a time and materials only basis for most jobs. For this one, a solid quote was required. When that happens, I multiply my normal hourly rate x the expected number of hours x a significant multiplier to allow Murphy to not only show up but open up shop on my jobsite.

I guess scrapping is different, but estimates aren't really accepted in my core line of work, especially when I'm just a subcontractor and not the GC. It's either time and materials or a solid quote on jobs of any size significance. That's the other reason that I discounted scrap value completely on this quote....I'm not a scrapper by trade and am not planning to put any of my eggs in the scrap market futures basket.

I do have to say I'm enjoying reading up on different guys' opinions here on scrap torches, etc....I've used liquid O2 before but never rented it for my own company, and I think I've got a 4' Smith DG series scrap torch around somewhere but I'm not sure if I've ever even lit it up....and Smith discontinued the DG heads some years back anyway because the secondary spark arrestor in the head didn't work out so great. So maybe I'll even make a purchase or 2 based on some recommendations here.

I use Harris same model shown below but they come in different configurations. I once had the longer one that the scrap yards use but did not care much for it as most of the jobs i did had many confined spaces.

The Harris model below is for propane or city gas, the mixing head does a very good job of mixing the gas's to obtain a hot flame making start up cuts much faster, heavy round stock 6 to 8 inch diameter is a bit tricky to get started but once its hot enough to get o2 going for the burn that shaft is history.

The largest piece of equipment I've cut up was a Bucyrus Erie that was powered by a KT450 Cummins which sold as a core. The counterweight alone was 20,000 pounds. pieces this large don't make the yards very happy.

Cutting up large scrap is like playing a game of pool or chess, you always have to be aware of where that next piece of large metal is going to fall and what might be in the way

https://i.postimg.cc/q79XV0Lc/harris.png

https://i.postimg.cc/xdQKjgmh/Screen...6-20-30-03.png

KT450 Cummins, back in 1993, $11,000.00 for the core.

https://youtu.be/Xyz5vJbTg1Y

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Originally Posted by Welder

I normally don't do quotes or estimates at all; I work on a time and materials only basis for most jobs. For this one, a solid quote was required. When that happens, I multiply my normal hourly rate x the expected number of hours x a significant multiplier to allow Murphy to not only show up but open up shop on my jobsite.

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I get what you're saying. I was in the building trades for 30 + years. Self employed carpenter for 16 of those years.

Most of my work was time and material. I might have made more money doing bid jobs but i just didn't have the appetite for risk. Was always very prudent in the way i ran the business. Maine is one of the worst states in the union in which to run a business. Over 90% of the new business startups here fail within the first five years. It only takes one or two bad decisions put you under.

I remember when the recession of 07-08 hit. Net profits dropped by 48 % that year. Construction really didn't start to pick back up for another ten years after that.

I've kinda been through the school of hard knocks .... ya know ? It makes a fulla cautious.

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Originally Posted by hills

I get what you're saying. I was in the building trades for 30 + years. Self employed carpenter for 16 of those years.

Most of my work was time and material. I might have made more money doing bid jobs but i just didn't have the appetite for risk. Was always very prudent in the way i ran the business. Maine is one of the worst states in the union in which to run a business. Over 90% of the new business startups fail within the first five years. It only takes one or two bad decisions put you under.

I remember when the recession of 07-08 hit. Net profits dropped by 48 % that year. Construction really didn't start to pick back up for another ten years after that.

I've kinda been through the mill .... ya know ? It makes a fulla cautious.

I dunno man ... i wouldn't recommend bidding a job that far out. Not with the way the economy is these days. History repeats itself.

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I get what you're saying; I've been in business since '06 myself and well remember the downturn. However, this is only 2 weeks of work for me, and my business won't live or die on 2 weeks' worth of work....so I took the chance on it at a rate that's plenty fair to me. Watched a few youtube vids on how they're put together, and there's no rocket science going on. You just have to be really aware that those water tubes are supporting a huge overhead tank that weighs thousands of lbs, so you've got to support it before cutting them all away. The outer frame doesn't do anything except support the insulation and the burner.

Shouldn't be a big deal, and if the GC I'm bidding under gets the job, I don't think I'll have any trouble getting it taken care of in the allotted time. I think I can even transport it myself in a few loads on my tri-axle trailer.

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Originally Posted by Welder

I get what you're saying; I've been in business since '06 myself and well remember the downturn. However, this is only 2 weeks of work for me, and my business won't live or die on 2 weeks' worth of work....so I took the chance on it at a rate that's plenty fair to me. Watched a few youtube vids on how they're put together, and there's no rocket science going on. You just have to be really aware that those water tubes are supporting a huge overhead tank that weighs thousands of lbs, so you've got to support it before cutting them all away. The outer frame doesn't do anything except support the insulation and the burner.

Shouldn't be a big deal, and if the GC I'm bidding under gets the job, I don't think I'll have any trouble getting it taken care of in the allotted time. I think I can even transport it myself in a few loads on my tri-axle trailer.

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Ahh .... not a terrible risk if it's only a two week job. :)

Best of luck !

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Originally Posted by hills

Ahh .... not a terrible risk if it's only a two week job. :)

Best of luck !

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