Then computer boards , Mem - - etcetera drop in price also .
Here is the question ? how low in spot price , would gold have to go so the cost of chemicals and time to refine cause computer scrap to become valueless .
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Then computer boards , Mem - - etcetera drop in price also .
Here is the question ? how low in spot price , would gold have to go so the cost of chemicals and time to refine cause computer scrap to become valueless .
I get the impression that proper escrap recyclers can made their profit from just the Copper that's in the boards.
At a minimum, they can pay their overheads since Asians work for a dollar a day. Well they might.
Everything else is just pure profit.
The acids used can be used repeatedly, not entirely sure how long exactly though. So I would assume that cuts the cost of doing it down quite a bit.
lets not find out
If you're getting into to recovery and refining I strongly suggest joining the gold refiner's forum. I'm a member there myself and can attest to it's vast amount of information. Be safe.
I saw a tv show long time ago. I mean 10+ YEARS ago about modern treasure hunting.
One segment was about a gold refinery company in California.
They were profitable back then and gold was around $400.
So as long as their operation is lean and efficient it will always be profitable.
However, a LOT of metal and e-waste businesses are hurting because things were too good too long. So they built crazy overhead, that's hard to reduce.
I am juast starting and if I keep stuff lean and mean, I am sure I will be in this for a very long time.
I am just a handler, breaking downer (is that a word? lol) and better than scrap seller.
my guess is that safety and regulations are a big part of the cost.
refining with chemicals is very dangerous, and should only be done after proper training.
we try not to talk too much about refining on this forum because of how dangerous it is
I doubt that is true. My yard stopped buying low grade boards. Said they actually have to pay to get rid of them. And when they were buying them they only paid a penny per pound. So I really doubt there is that much value in the copper trace.Quote:
Originally Posted by eesakiwi
There used to be a decent amount of copper in boards and prices for copper were higher. If gold was profitable to mine out of tons of rock at $400 an oz then smelting boards can't be more expensive.
There is much more copper to a motherboard than just trace. Not sure how complicated it is to separate and refine properly, but your average computer motherboard is approximately 1/2 fiberglass and 1/2 copper before any etching or components are added...Quote:
Originally Posted by billygoat
Overhead is exactly right. One of our competitors to the north is hurting badly, because they upgraded facilities, bought a $15k box truck, and a $40k hard drive shredder- and then didn't land one of the large contracts they bought it for.
If you're overhead is $0, it's almost impossible to lose money. Lean and mean is the way to go for sure- as the weaker competition is driven out, the lean companies will be in a pretty good position to profit on the rebound (Whenever that comes)
The 'low grade - brown boards' will only have one side with Copper traces, maybe both sides and that's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by billygoat
Green boards and such are made up of several layers of boards, I have read of up to 7 layers, so that's a minimum of 8 layers of (thin) Copper traces.
Also they want the traces to contact between the boards and they often have Gold plating lining the 'thru board' holes. The Gold plating is a easy to plate metal and the Copper plating plates onto Gold really easy to make good connections between boards.
I expect they are acid etching off as much Copper as they can from the boards, then mincing them to a paste and using Cyanide to remove the rest of the Copper and Gold.
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They use Cyanide to get Gold from soil, the Golds so fine you cannot see it. That's how they do it at a Gold mine in NZ.
They spread out huge plastic sheets and cover it with ballmilled soil (the 'rich soil' only) then cover that with Cyanide solution and let the rain carry the Cyanide down thru the soil, then they collect the outgoing water from the pits and remove the Cyanide, with the Gold stuck to it, and separate the Cyanide off to get the Gold.
The washed soil is not allowed to have more than 4 parts per million of Cyanide in it afterwards, often its got more Cyanide than that in it before they process it !
Any Cyanide left in it is a waste, as its holding the Gold in there as well.
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Also, the boards have other metals in/on them that the refiners get, Silvers a good one as its in the solder, along with Bismuth(?), Tin and Platinum.
The tiny brown SMD blocks, the capacitors, have Silver and Platinum(?) In them.
Lotsa Gold and Silver in the surface mounted switches, contacts and SAW devices.
It all adds up when you do it by the Ton....
There were ewaste recyclers around when gold was $300/oz, so long ways to go before all this stuff would become worthless. It is profitable with large enough volumes and low overhead.
Refining the boards on a large scale is fairly low cost. Basically shred the boards, smelt to get all the metals, so you end up with a mostly copper ingot which contains some precious metals along with lead, tin, etc. Then electrolytically refine to get pure 99.9% copper, and the remaining anode slimes contain all the precious metals. These are further refined by various methods to get the gold, silver, palladium, etc. Not that different from processing a regular copper ore or copper concentrate, which are far lower grade in precious metals, yet still profitable.
The refining process is very different on a large scale compared to what some small scale or home based refiners might do.
I just realize my post was a little unclear.
The refiner I was referring to was a ewaste refinery, mostly computers.
They stated if I recall it right that every computer has about $1.50 in gold in them and it cost them $1 to recover it.
And there is no shortage of computers, so volume is the name of the game.
And like I said before that was when gold was $400/ounce.
https://youtu.be/2T4FswrtFs0 lots of copper if you have the right equipment...
The acids used cannot be re-usee. Once used, a refiner considers them used up. I recover small amounts of Nitric in my wet fume scrubber that I can then use for a different process, but it eventually gets used up.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDowntown
When buying acids in small amounts they are considerably more expensive than what is paid per gallon in a 55 gallon drum. For example, if I purchase a case of 6 750ml of Nitric Acid, it can cost me between $180-$250 per case. If I purchase in bulk from a company that makes it, and in bulk, I might pay .35 cents a gallon.
But the acids are considered consumables, and unless the refiners process includes recovering some of the acid, and can be used in another process, they would be a one time use.
Large refineries use many different techniques besides acids such as floatation, frothing, heap leaching, smelting and more, which brings down the cost considerably.
It is still less expensive to recover and refine precious metals from electronic scrap, than it is to process ore, concentrates that are mined. And a refiner is able to recover a lot more per ton of electronic than from a ton of ore.
Scott
If you accumulate enough copper, and the refine electroloytically, you can recover gold and other precious metals that exist in copper, in small amounts.Quote:
Originally Posted by billygoat
Copper refining is a big business, a lot larger than you might think. Problem is, there are only a few big copper refiners, and that entails shipping copper over a long distance to a refiner who will pay out on all values. It would also require properly representing your material at the refiner.
Scott
Large refiners almost always incinerate boards, and then recover the values from what is left over, or the filters in the flue/exhaust.Quote:
Originally Posted by eesakiwi
You are right about other metals, many times the components also have silver, palladium (MLCC for example), platinum, gold, etc.
Scott
Nobodies overhead is $0. To compete you need to have the proper equipment to maximize profits or even stay in the game. If $55K (loan to be paid back over a few years I assume) is enough to bankrupt a company they were in trouble a long time ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by matador
Unless you intimately understand the dynamics, competition, market etc of any business, you cannot make any claim that a particular business was in trouble prior to obtaining a loan.Quote:
Originally Posted by unknownk
If you have never applied for a business loan, then you certainly cannot make any claims as to a business that seeks or obtains one. Unless you have a proper D&B, a history of transactions spawning over three years at least, where you are making a profit, it is very difficult, specially in today's world, to obtain a reputable loan. The alternatives may be a shady company that withdrawals funds off your credit card machine, or attached directly to your bank account, and only short term, high interest which is very expensive. A customer backing out on a long term contract, market fluctuations, cost of business insurance, changes in the law, etc.
I have owned several businesses where I have had to close my doors. A car stereo, alarm and pager/cellular phone store where I was clearing well over 200k per year, Good Guys and Circut City opened up, and killed business overnight. I was in business 5 years, had an established credit history and D&B yet couldn't get even an SBA backed loan. An international trade business where one bad deal emptied my business account, a home loan mod company that I had to close because of the change in laws, regardless of the fact we helped over 100 people keep their homes, an organic produce market that I had to close because 2 years after I opened a Winco and Super Walmart opened the same year not more than 1/4 mile away. I owned a grocery store where in one single year my workman's comp went from just over 12k to over 82k per year and that came right out of my pocket.
There are so many factors outside the control of a small business owner that affects their business that you cannot say much about a business closing their doors unless you know for sure the reasons and factors that conspired against them.
So I would suggest, prior to climbing onto your lofty horse, to think first before posting with such certainty on anything you know nothing about, that you educate yourself better on business. Frankly speaking your post leads me to believe you know absolutely nothing about owning a business. You post is either out of complete ignorance, or only meant as a bad troll.
And think about this, as competition becomes more prelevent, prices go down, costs rise, if you are only making 100k per year and either must take out a bad loan to stay competitive or close up shop, you should probably take out the loan for 55k, specially if your business takes on the debt and not you personally. Even if you fail, the business is tagged with the credit burden, not you personally. This is also the reason some loans are difficult to obtain. Most people wait until they have no other choice, to borrow against their future.
And one more thing. Overhead are things you spend money on. Consumables, rent, licensing fees, employees, equipment, etc. If you are working out of your home, picking up scrap on your way home from work, not needing insurance because you are the only employee, and you already have medical insurance, etc. You will be described as having no overhead or very little. Take the statement as meaning something like this instead of nitpicking and arguing semantics. You will find that communicating with others will be far easier if you simply seek to understand a statement in the spirit ofhow it was meant instead of a literal translation that leaves no room for understànding.
Scott
I don't know of any part timers (people picking up scrap and working out of your home) that would need a $40k HD shredder. That sounds like a very large volume enterprise to me. Low overhead and costly equipment purchases don't really go hand in hand unless you have a large contract signed and need it to do the work (very risky if the client backs out).
I know how business loans work. Unless your company has enough equity (buildings owned, industrial equipment paid for, specific amount of orders booked into the future, low debt, etc) no bank will give you a revolving credit line. There is a big difference in a manufacturer of goods compared to a service company, consulting group or just a reseller of goods. Banks need something to liquidate when you go out of business and get all their money back. Small timers put up their belongings to get a work loan, which is how some people end up homeless.
I used to be a partner in a business development firm. I can tell you this, you are right but excluded many other methods of financing, specially for those without assets. If the business is privatly owned, it also not typical they will liquid, as a matter of fact, it is often best not to be. You are also forgetting loans for assets in which the assets being purchased secure the loan. I obtained a lot of my equipment in this way, a small percentage down, the rest financed Also factoring, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by unknownk
I have a lab where I do most of my work, but I can also say, I have over 100k worth of equipment in at home much of which also happens to be in my garage. So again, you are wrong.
I wasn't suggestion that the failing business mentioned was working out of there garage, how could I know that? Your comments, to which I responded, are not mutually inclusive to the post. I am not sure why you want to marry the two, in fact they are mutually exclusive unless you can prove you have first hand knowledge, which of course you do not.
At this point you can either concede your statements were incorrect, or you can choose to continue to argue your point which is painfully obvious as to not be tennable.
Scott
Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree. We need to all get along.
I am talking more in generalities and you seem to have a specific situation in mind. Every situation is different, but the way things work tend to have a pattern.Quote:
Originally Posted by NobleMetalWorks
Banks look at $100k mass of used equipment (which you probably didn't buy in one day) and think maybe I can get $15k out of it at auction if you don't pay back a loan. Some equipment with high demand and long lead times might actually fetch a decent amount of the original purchase price, most does not. Banks are about the same as pawn shops, they want paid back with a big profit or they sell your item for a big profit either way they don't care. If you have nothing as collateral you don't get a loan (unless the US gov is going to pay the tab).
PS: I get along with people of differing views just fine. The world would be a ****ty place if everyone had the same opinions I do and the older you get your opinions change with experience.