Cecil the Lion

Minn. dentist, ND native's killing of lion spurs backlash | INFORUM

Wondering what my friends on the SMF think of this situation.

On the one hand I feel kinda sorry for the dentist. He was apparently on a guided hunting trip and thought the hunt was legit. His life and business has been destroyed.

On the other hand the dude sounds like he is disrespectful twoards legit hunting/fishing.

Shot a bear outside a legal area then brought it into the legal area. Busted without a fishing license. Who knows what else he's done and not been caught.

Opinions?

Edit: Please try to keep it civil (no death threats) lol

The fact that we as Americans sit back an let the government tell us what we can and can not do is the greater problem here. Why do you need a license to fish and hunt? So the government can collect another tax they call a fee. So what he killed a Lion. If he has the paperwork that says he was on a legal hunt then go after the guides not him. If he doesnt have said paperwork then send him back to Africa to face the justice system there.

The double edge sword of social media. If you don't want any criticism of what you do, don't post it. I made a post this morning about how dealing with teenagers who sometimes can't remember a logical steps of 1+1+1... in getting things done in a semi-sarcastic way but included a photo of a nice smiley face T cut into our grass. People liked the pix but no one commented on my text. Too edgy for them I guess.

I haven't read any of the actual story about "Cecil the Lion" or the "hunter" but obviously there are some crazy people out there. In the end, he has to live with himself. Would I display a big cat all proud like if I shot it on its infirmary deathbed or whatever? No. Only he can answer that question as a man.

A few years back my bro and his friend shot some bison out at a ranch in our state. It wasn't a "hunt" in my eyes and wanted no part in just killing a buffalo the way they were forced to by the land owner. Now, if you let me sneak up on one in open grass and I only have a 12 gauge with a slug or a muzzle loader and I have to kill a buffalo that way, I'd consider it. I'd certainly not going to pose with one with my scoped high-power when I shot it in the head at 50 meters standing...

I was just reading about this. I had read about Cecil earlier in the day, an this article had been updated with things I didn't know before.

Couple of reasons folks are pissed off.

1. It was a local favorite. The Lion was famous there.
2. It was illegally baited an lured out of the National Park by the Dentist's guides.
3. It was shot with bow an arrow then tracked for 40 hours. ( I have no idea if this is common with bow hunting..) an then finished off with a gun.
4. He beheaded a lion that was famous an loved by the people of that community.
5. He poached it.

Far as fee's, the government, etc...

This happened in Africa, so..no fee's for the Big Gov' to collect..unless were talking the country it happened in. Most hunters I know are pretty attune to what their hunting an don't kill what they don't plan to use. You know they did try letting people hunt with out regulation once..it almost led to buffalo being wiped out, amongst many other animals. Humans have proved they lack the common sense to know when they've done to much harm to a species.

Do hunters need their hands held? Nope. Just another case of a couple of idiots ruining it for everyone else. An that's why you have fee's an licenses an all the rules you do nowadays. To stop others from being an idiot like the one who caused the rule to be needed in the first place.

Here's the part I'm upset over tho...People who post crap to their twitter, facebook, instagram, etc. then get upset when others don't agree with them, or voice their opinion on it. Here's a tip..don't want people all up in your **** giving you their opinion...DO NOT POST ABOUT IT. Don't tweet it. Don't shop photos, don't post it on a forum, etc..if you don't want people to comment.

Sirscrapalot - In the jungle, in the mighty jungle, the Lion sleeps tonight...Wimoweh, wimoweh, wimoweh, wimoweh - The Lion King

Well, I see both sides, but there is not much I (or we) can do about it in any way. What I really care about (and can do nothing about) is the hypocrisy, the double standard, of what seems like every issue. People seem more upset over the death of a lion than they do about Christians having their heads sawed off on a beach, or drown in a pool in a cage, or burned alive in a cage. People are now upset and criticizing that Planned Parenthood has been filmed engaging in completely unethical practices, but when PETA films cows or chickens being "mistreated," there is a hew and cry to give a crap.

The hypocrisy I see is this: It would seem that the full weight of the "you have to give a crap about this" media is more concerned about chickens or lions or bald eagles or turtles or "The Earth," than they care about human beings.

I listen to Dennis Prager on the radio. He has talked about asking a question of college students when he lectures, and the question is this: Your dog and a stranger are caught in a river and will drown. You can only save one. Which do you save? The answer is that in order to act ethically, you must save the human being. To save your dog is an act of selfishness that perhaps God (if there is one) will not forgive.

I was also watching a show about Alaskans (I don't know which one) where one of the trappers caught a lynx. The lynx had just been trapped and he went back to dispatch his catch. He fashioned a loop of wire on a long stick and quietly went back and put the loop around the neck and snapped it tight. As the cat was dying, he told the filmer that this was not something that he enjoyed, but it was the quickest and most humane way of ending the cats life. He said that this cat would die as pleasant a death as any lynx could hope to die because... this really hit me... NOTHING DIES A PLEASANT DEATH IN THE WILD. That lynx would have starved or been injured or gored by prey or been torn apart by a pack of wolves. As deaths go, that lynx got the premium package death.

So... I like to hunt. I like to eat meat. So, I must be comfortable knowing that the deaths of animals is inevitable. Given a lighter and a can of gasoline and told I had to make a choice whether to burn a lion or a taliban prisoner in a cage, I would burn the lion. I would shoot the taliban (were his crimes suitable for death), but I could not commit the inhumanity of burning another person to death.

So, Cecil got iced. I feel more sorry for the people to whom he was familiar, but everything lives to die. The dentist was an idiot to glorify the results of a botched hunt. He is paying more for his stupidity than he is for killing a lion.

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Originally Posted by t00nces2

Well, I see both sides, but there is not much I (or we) can do about it in any way. What I really care about (and can do nothing about) is the hypocrisy, the double standard, of what seems like every issue. People seem more upset over the death of a lion than they do about Christians having their heads sawed off on a beach, or drown in a pool in a cage, or burned alive in a cage. People are now upset and criticizing that Planned Parenthood has been filmed engaging in completely unethical practices, but when PETA films cows or chickens being "mistreated," there is a hew and cry to give a crap.

The hypocrisy I see is this: It would seem that the full weight of the "you have to give a crap about this" media is more concerned about chickens or lions or bald eagles or turtles or "The Earth," than they care about human beings.

I listen to Dennis Prager on the radio. He has talked about asking a question of college students when he lectures, and the question is this: Your dog and a stranger are caught in a river and will drown. You can only save one. Which do you save? The answer is that in order to act ethically, you must save the human being. To save your dog is an act of selfishness that perhaps God (if there is one) will not forgive.

I was also watching a show about Alaskans (I don't know which one) where one of the trappers caught a lynx. The lynx had just been trapped and he went back to dispatch his catch. He fashioned a loop of wire on a long stick and quietly went back and put the loop around the neck and snapped it tight. As the cat was dying, he told the filmer that this was not something that he enjoyed, but it was the quickest and most humane way of ending the cats life. He said that this cat would die as pleasant a death as any lynx could hope to die because... this really hit me... NOTHING DIES A PLEASANT DEATH IN THE WILD. That lynx would have starved or been injured or gored by prey or been torn apart by a pack of wolves. As deaths go, that lynx got the premium package death.

So... I like to hunt. I like to eat meat. So, I must be comfortable knowing that the deaths of animals is inevitable. Given a lighter and a can of gasoline and told I had to make a choice whether to burn a lion or a taliban prisoner in a cage, I would burn the lion. I would shoot the taliban (were his crimes suitable for death), but I could not commit the inhumanity of burning another person to death.

So, Cecil got iced. I feel more sorry for the people to whom he was familiar, but everything lives to die. The dentist was an idiot to glorify the results of a botched hunt. He is paying more for his stupidity than he is for killing a lion.

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Amen brother! Notice how much publicity Tom Brady gets for "destroying" a cell phone, but Hillary loses emails vital to our national security and conservatives get blasted for even questioning her integrity...odd priorities in this country

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Originally Posted by PartTimeScrapper

The fact that we as Americans sit back an let the government tell us what we can and can not do is the greater problem here. Why do you need a license to fish and hunt? So the government can collect another tax they call a fee. So what he killed a Lion. If he has the paperwork that says he was on a legal hunt then go after the guides not him. If he doesnt have said paperwork then send him back to Africa to face the justice system there.

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I'm torn on this one with you PTS. On the one hand I do like the Gov to be relatively hands-off, but on the other I have seen the benefits of our "fee" dollars go towards the Fish & Wildlife Dept., which has made my fishing and hunting experiences better. But personally I dont see the need to kill lions. Maybe they offer the same hunt but only supply a knife next time instead of a scoped rifle...make it more interesting (and put it on video for the electronically depraved Americans to consume). My money would be on the lion :)

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Originally Posted by shendog

I'm torn on this one with you PTS. On the one hand I do like the Gov to be relatively hands-off, but on the other I have seen the benefits of our "fee" dollars go towards the Fish & Wildlife Dept., which has made my fishing and hunting experiences better. But personally I dont see the need to kill lions. Maybe they offer the same hunt but only supply a knife next time instead of a scoped rifle...make it more interesting (and put it on video for the electronically depraved Americans to consume). My money would be on the lion :)

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I would imagine the bush villages would rather see the lion dispatched instead of their children. Bears are on the rise here in Florida, so, bear hunts have been authorized. Alligators are routinely killed to keep pets and children and elderly safer.

Even with a scoped rifle, the outcome of a lion hunt is not set in stone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEIGqD80N6U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i0OSGB-baI

The knowledge the dentist had at the time is immaterial to me. He paid someone to bring the lion to him. In my mind this is not hunting. Hunting requires a person to stalk the prey, know their natural instincts, and out think the animal. I agree hunting provides the most human death for a wild animal. The dentist is not a hunter and gives hunters a bad rap, just as some unethical scrappers give to the rest of us.

I do not like government regulating everything in our lives, but at the same time I support hunting and fishing licenses when the money is directed to the preservation of wildlife. Look at what we did to the bison without regulation. The last statement is not original, it is one I have heard many times.

I am thinking the man that shot the drone out of the sky above his home is more of a hunter. At least he outsmarted a machine.

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Originally Posted by shendog

Amen brother! Notice how much publicity Tom Brady gets for "destroying" a cell phone, but Hillary loses emails vital to our national security and conservatives get blasted for even questioning her integrity...odd priorities in this country

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But! Gasp! Tm Brady deflated some footballs!

I find it kinda pathetic the outrage hype over this yet planned parent hood admitted many times to selling off human organs in a black market no mass media outrage over that .

I have no sympathy for this "taker", a self serving "trophy" seeker has no regard for anything, but his selfish wants. Spending $54K to go near a known natural preserve, essentially pay a "bounty" to lure a "big game" animal away from it's protected preserve, all for his "killing pleasure".

There is nothing about this selfish act, that any of us should condone or confuse with any other issues, it was just plain WRONG! I was taught what hunting is, how it should be done, why hunting is important as a natural resource, and why these resources should be managed, protected for all us, as well as those who choose not to hunt. I'm a hunter, this act was not hunting, it was the killing of a animal because he could get away with it.

Wonder how he feels now, to be the hunted!

All the people involved in the lion "hunt" are losers; the shooter for needing his ego stroked so much to take every game animal on the Pope & Young list and his "guides" for their greed.

But, where is the outrage (just confined to a couple of African things) about how many of his citizens that "president-for-life" Robert M. (who really gives a s*** what is last name is) of "Cecil's" home country has had killed over the years so he can stay in power?? Or African dictators in general??

Where's the outcry about the millions of people who have been killed in the long running, low-intensity but high-cruelty Congo war?? Nope, haven't heard any outcry about that situation.

Social media, and the media in general massively distort scales and most people who "discuss" these issues by posting neither don't have the ability or the willingness to sit and reflect on such things using scale. Democracy is a great things but it must be tempered somewhat by people willing to think intelligently for more than 5 seconds at a time. Being ruled by a mob of idiots isn't probably any better than being ruled by small groups of smart dictators...

OK, I guess the Congo War is basically "over" but did you ever hear anyone talk about it (celebs, U.S. gov types, whoever?). I wonder if 100,000 Americans would have signed Obwan's white house petitions about the Congo War when it was going on and all these people were dying. Some how I don't think that would have happend...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Congo_War

Whatever they did
They f'd it all up...
good luck pal

A different point of view:

1: I think i understand the viewpoint of the environmentalists like PETA. In their view all the furry animals are innocents ... much like children. Being cruel to an animal is akin to being cruel to a child.

People on the other hand are far from innocent. We bear the stain of original sin.

2: There's a point of view that "wildlife management" is a contradiction in terms. Left to it's own devices nature will manage itself quite nicely. Everything will turn out just as it should.

That may or may not include the human race. >:)

Overall the whole Cecil thing is kinda sad. It sucks to be the dentist and sucks even more to be the lion !

< Shrugs > I guess that's Bungle in the Jungle.

He paid $50 K + to kill him! RIP! The Dentist had money... Now he is ****ed! No business, death threats and he is on the run... hopefully some rich guy finds him hiding in South Sudan and pays 10 K to shoot an arrow through him and follows him for 40 hours before the kill shot! Should he be able to use his cash to hunt these animals. Yes. Is he sorry he did, I am sure he is! Rich people pay a lot of money to kill Giraffes, Lions and other animals! I think if you paid 50k YOU COULD HAVE GONE ON QUITE A SAFARI THROUGHT Africa IN ORDER TO SEE LOTS OF ANIMALS... not just ones you wanted to kill!

'What Lion?,' Zimbabweans Don't Give A **** About Cecil Story - informationliberation
‘What lion?,’ Zimbabweans ask, amid global Cecil circus | New York Post

HARARE — As social media exploded with outrage this week at the killing of Cecil the lion, the untimely passing of the celebrated predator at the hands of an American dentist went largely unnoticed in the animal’s native Zimbabwe.
“What lion?” acting information minister Prisca Mupfumira asked in response to a request for comment about Cecil, who was at that moment topping global news bulletins and generating reams of abuse for his killer on websites in the United States and Europe.
The government has still given no formal response, and on Thursday the papers that chose to run the latest twist in the Cecil saga tucked it away on inside pages.
One title had to rely on foreign news agency copy because it failed to send a reporter to the court appearance of two locals involved.
In contrast, the previous evening 200 people stood in protest outside the suburban Minneapolis dental practice of 55-year-old Walter Palmer, calling for him to be extradited to Zimbabwe to face charges of taking part in an illegal hunt
Local police are also investigating death threats against Palmer, whose location is not known. Because many of the threats were online, police are having difficulty determining their origins and credibility.
Palmer, a lifelong big game hunter, has admitted killing Cecil with a bow and arrow on July 1 near Zimbabwe’s Hwange national park, but said he had hired professional local guides with the required hunting permits and believed the hunt was legal.
For most people in the southern African nation, where unemployment tops 80 percent and the economy continues to feel the aftereffects of 1 billion percent hyperinflation a decade ago, the uproar had all the hallmarks of a “First World problem.”
“Are you saying that all this noise is about a dead lion? Lions are killed all the time in this country,” said Tryphina Kaseke, a used-clothes hawker on the streets of Harare. “What is so special about this one?”

As with many countries in Africa, in Zimbabwe big wild animals such as lions, elephants or hippos are seen either as a potential meal, or a threat to people and property that needs to be controlled or killed.
The world of Palmer, who paid $50,000 to kill 13-year-old Cecil, is a very different one from that inhabited by millions of rural Africans who are more than occasionally victims of wild animal attacks.
According to CrocBITE, a database, from January 2008 to October 2013, there were more than 460 recorded attacks by Nile crocodiles, most of them fatal. That tally is almost certainly a massive underrepresentation.
“Why are the Americans more concerned than us?” said Joseph Mabuwa, a 33-year-old father of two cleaning his car in the center of the capital. “We never hear them speak out when villagers are killed by lions and elephants in Hwange.”

In our country we have seen what happens when our native wildlife is over hunted, exploited, habitats polluted, and over development. The Red Wolf of the Southeast, Bald Eagle, and California Condor three good examples, that "man" almost wiped out to the point of extinction. Fortunately we realized how important it was to manage and not eliminate our native wildlife. Also demonstrate how governments can work in a positive way. Largely by issuing hunting and fishing licenses, setting limits on hunting and fishing, protecting and managing these as a valuable resource. The Bald eagle, California Condor, and Red Wolf, were all placed on the critical endangered species list. With intervention and protection, utilizing captive breeding and reintroducing back into their native areas they are on the comeback! Red Wolves were native all of the southeast and as far north as Pennsylvania. By the mid 60's there was less than 20 of these animals. The California Condor was down to less the 30 by the mid 80's. The Bald Eagle once native to all of North America, a symbolic American heritage treasure was close becoming extinct. First protected in 1940, declared a endangered species in 1967. With intervention, regulations and the banning of the poison DDT in 1972, the Bald Eagle was saved from being extinct. By 1980 there were more than 100,000 in the lower 48 states. In 1995 The Bald Eagle was removed from the endangered species list, still protected, but thriving again.

The Bald Eagle was almost eliminated and then saved by "Mankind". Can "Mother Nature" take care of itself? Often it will, if given time to heal with limited human activity. If our activity with nature has a negative impact, to the point of eliminating a species. Then we need to intervene, correct and help nature heal itself. "if we break it, then we need to fix it".

Cecil the Lion was a protected animal (just as the Bald Eagle is here). I believe this "taker" was aware of his protection status, lured him from a natural park and killed his trophy. As a American citizen, a hunter and a educated person, he should be held responsible, charged with any law violations (ours and theirs). As a human, we broke it (Cecil) and we need to fix it and the "taker" is going feel like the hunted! This is a "Hot Topic", because he bragged about his "Kill", the media is doing what they do "create interest" in a event. The "taker" was proud of his hunting adventure, wanting the whole world to know, he's one of the great hunters (A modern day "Buffalo Bill"). Personally I don't share his beliefs, to me he's a "Great A$$" and spending $54K to kill Cecil, maybe only a "Dumb A$$.

Scrappah- The innocent kid/animal analogy probably does not extend to critters that can kill and eat you, although Cecil being an old fart in lion years may not have been much of a threat anymore to people. One of the problems is that urban man personifies wild animals and think they're house pets like my dog. Just like that crazy dude who loved the brown bears so much that he went and lived with them. Until one of them killed and ate his a@@ one day...

Palmer should have spent more time practicing his shooting with the cross bow and less on finding these "lovely" guides. How much of a gasoline of this fire is because he didn't finish the lion quick and clean. And is there any real evidence they they were targeting Cecil deliberately? They just want to get a male lion out of the park.

Who knows what the actual laws that were broken except that these guides didn't have a lion license for this season. From what I've read they never went inside the national park and all the activities were done on private land. And this is often how lions are hunted "legally" there. Does game "luring" the way they did it and hunting under lights make it ethical? I guess that's for each person to answer for themselves. I wouldn't have hunted that way and probably would do the stalk where the critter has the chance to kill you if you really want to claim the Zulu balls of hunting a lion except they traditionally did it with a spear and shield. But ego stroke Palmer wanted to be one of the "chosen" Pope & Young guys to do all the game animals with a bow (does P&Y allow crossbow usage for trophies--maybe Palmer is "disabled"??).

Maybe all the attention on "Cecil" will highlight how generally messed up Africa is when it comes to resources vs. human carrying capacity. Lions and such are much more threatened by population growth and political strife there than a few dumbsh** Western "hunters"...

P.S. Burt, the red wolf will never return to much of its range. The eastern coyote, with a good amount of inter-breeding with red wolves, now, and mostly likely for generations to come, rule the Southeast U.S. These coyotes are much more adaptable to anthropogenic changes to the environment than the species they replaced. Red wolves will continue to be relics of secluded national wildlife refuges such as Alligator River in NC and zoos. The bald eagle problem was much easier to fix and is truly, as you pointed out, a conservation success stories. Not every species will have that positive of an outcome.

It's a tough thing Rog. You spend a ton of time out in the wild. You know how it is. Nature is both beautiful and incredibly cruel. It's all about predator and prey.

Old Cecil had a pretty good run. No doubt he ripped the hearts from many a baby antelope in his day. Then came the unfortunate day that he ran up against the most deadly predator ever developed by mother nature. That predator walked on two legs, hunted in packs, and carried a long rifle.

If you accept nature for what it truly is they you come to realize that natural law prevails and is unbreakable. If there's some kind of grand design it's entirely possible that the lion was meant to go extinct just as the Sabre Tooth Tiger & Wooly Mammoth did.

It's disconcerting to think this way but man is just as much a part of the natural order as any other creature on the planet. It may be arrogant to assume that we should presume to manage something so much greater than ourselves.

We're kinda conceited that way sometimes. ;)

Rog - I believe you are correct about the red wolf, their numbers will never be restablish in the wild again. The fact that they will exist in the future, will be as a species maintained in captivity as a zoo animal. The breeding program and release in designated management zones has had mixed results. First off in the mid 60's wildlife manager found only 17 wild animal, 3 of those were of mixed breed (coyotes). So the captive breeding program started with a very limited gene pool of 14 animal. As I understand it most of the reintroduced wolves, have again cross breeded with cyotes. I do hope the program of trying to reestablish the red wolves in areas of N.C./TN. is continued.

Rog you seem to be up on the state of our wildlife. What is your thought on the coyotes spreading to all 48 states now and even established in a lot of major cities (LA, NYC)? My thought a animal species that is out of control, thriving, becoming a problem. Very common here to see them hunting for food in my suburbia city and getting too comfortable with people.

A correction from my last post. It was not the Zulu who had to kill a lion as a rite of manhood passage with just their spear and club (not shield) but the Masai. The Zulus may have had a lion ritual as well to be a warrior/enter manhood. May have to check it out.

Burt- I don't know if coyotes would be considered "out of control" but they are certainly a generalist that does well not only in their "native" habitat but in highly altered human landscapes as well, from cropland edges to big cities. Raccoons are another generalist who have massively expanded their range over North America, although the long cold in much of Canada limit them. "Canada" geese as well. What the PETA and "just leave them alone" folks don't get is that ecosystems are dynamic and voids don't stay empty for long unless degradation is just so overwhelming that almost nothing can live there. We may not like the new ecosystem but that doesn't mean its not functional. I have a book in my head about my home region and the changes incurred over the last 150 years but that might have to wait until I retire. It may not follow the "company" line but if I manage to piss off both the hard left and and hard right, I'll probably have done my job ;)

As for wiley 'yote and being a pest and potential danger in urbanized areas, local and state govs may have to do what some suburban ones have done in Megalopolis out east when it comes to WT deer. In some areas where the deer are thriving and being pests (traffic accident dangers, eating down highly manicured gardens--they're just living in another modified ecosystem) and can't be controlled in a traditional hunting method, contract deer "hit squads" operate at night. They find where the deer are gathering or can be attracted and use night vision equipment and suppressed weapons to kill them and transport the carcasses out of the area after they are done. Mr. and Mrs. suburbanite wakes up in the morning and never knows that 5 deer were whacked a block or two away from their house. And no one basically talks about it...

I am in no way against hunting as long as you eat it, I doubt he ate an ounce of that lion , I am personally disgusted with these types of hunts , it would be different if there was a need to thin the herd so to speak as we do this here in Maine at times , hunting for food equals good to me hunting just to kill is wrong

IMO, how could the dentist not have known the lion was lured off sacred land? WHY should HE not be held accountable yet the guides should be?

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Originally Posted by DakotaRog

As for wiley 'yote and being a pest and potential danger in urbanized areas, local and state govs may have to do what some suburban ones have done in Megalopolis out east when it comes to WT deer. In some areas where the deer are thriving and being pests (traffic accident dangers, eating down highly manicured gardens--they're just living in another modified ecosystem) and can't be controlled in a traditional hunting method, contract deer "hit squads" operate at night. They find where the deer are gathering or can be attracted and use night vision equipment and suppressed weapons to kill them and transport the carcasses out of the area after they are done. Mr. and Mrs. suburbanite wakes up in the morning and never knows that 5 deer were whacked a block or two away from their house. And no one basically talks about it...

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It's a little disconcerting. The ecosystem here was pretty badly damaged by the 1970's and with careful management it's rebounded. A certain amount of repair is not a bad thing but it's playing around with a natural balance that can behave in unpredictable ways. You don't always get the result you were expecting.

Up until six or seven years ago the coyote population here on the island was non-existent. They had been wiped out as pests decades ago.

Whether they found their way back in -or- were reintroduced i don't know. They are back with a vengeance though. The darn things have come within five feet of my bedroom window and started howling in the middle of the night. Apparently they could smell my dog and were calling for him to come out and play ? (mate)

It's not the best situation. The yoties have cross bred with domestic dogs in other parts of the country to create coy-dogs. This is a much larger wild predator that sometimes views small humans as a prey item when their hungry. Additionally ... rabies sometimes gets into the pack and that creates another problem.

It's not easy to eradicate them once their established. When a night hunter goes up against a pack in the wild the advantage is to the coyote because the human is on their turf.

Best guess as to why they were decimated here in the past was because human hunters all but destroyed their food source. (deer,squirrel,rabbit,etc.)

Coy-dogs are certainly a newer twist to things, most don't look like a classic coyote. The "eastern" yote that still has the classical coyote look and has a certain amount of red wolf genes in it can become much larger than the western or centrals. A 40+ pound yote from these regions is uncommon but this weight can be frequent for an eastern. Critters hanging on the scale of over 50 pounds have been verified. For those who have never held a dead coyote and look at their dog, and say, "big deal, my dog is 50 pounds" (as is mine and stands much lower than a yote), dog bone structure is denser/heavier than a coyote's. Another difference in eastern yotes is that can have a wide range of colors, ranging from black to classic German shepherd. We have some variations in the classic coyote colors that I've seen in SD but nothing like the range of colors that I've seen in pixs from guys in the East and South.

Scrappah- If you can use snares or "cable restraints" in ME and want to thin some of those yotes on your island, I'd say go for it. They're very effective once a person gets the hang of putting them up and work all winter.

Living on the very edge of national forest, the man vs nature is a daily issue.
There a quite a few local hunters who have been pushing the coy dog and coyote population back out of the towns and surrounding rural ares and back into the forest, dogs are the most common use.
While this puts many at ease as a potential threat to children pets/livestock and in groups even adults, but it also opens up these areas to the prey. Skunks, woodchucks, mice, raccoon, moles, deer ext ext now overrun these areas as their main predator is gone, since wolfs who suffered the same fate are no longer around.
seems other scavengers seem to be doing well in population as well..
I'm with scrappah natural balance should be controlled by nature, man should control....man

< Gentle laughter > Don't mind me guys .... i'm a bit different.

I've got no problem at all with hunting & trapping but i prefer to sit back and observe the cycles of the seasons with all of the different critters coming through. Got to admit that it's a little unnerving to be working outside just after the sun sets some days. That Coyote pack migrates around the island and if they happen to be in your area they let you know about it. You can hear them calling back & forth to one another as the group is moving steadily in your direction.

It's not that they're hunting human .... they're tracking the scent of the deer that travel through here to feed as they're migrating through. It would be awfully easy to take it personally though. Those yoties do tend to leave scent markers around the property. There's obviously a little bit of disagreement on what territory belongs to whom.

Call me crazy, but i'd rather not get into a pi$$ing contest with the neighbors. They don't seem to be causing any real problems at the moment so i'm just as well content to leave em' be.

I live 40 miles east of downtown LA, in a city that for the most part has become just like all the rest of southern Cal., one huge metropolitan city (mostly concrete connecting each city to the next). I moved here from a beach city 30+ years ago, to get out of the city and to live in a more "country type" lifestyle. I choose to buy a home in Chino, because there were homes on very large lots (1 to 3 acres), more than half of the city was in a agriculture zone, Santa Anna river and unincorporated land on the cities south boarder, Chino Hills state park and it's 38 mile wild life corridor on cities west boarder, the north side of city is bordered by a narrow (1 mile wide) unincorporated land as well. So in short, it had lots of open space that had not been developed yet!

My first week I lived here, every morning before leaving home and my 1 1/2 hour commute to work, I would need to pickup the trash at the side of my house. Some "idiot prankster", would knock over the can and spread the trash all over. This went on until the first weekend, I decided to stay up all night to catch the "idiot". About three AM, I heard the first can getting turned over, I carefully sneak to the side of the house and peer around the corner to spot the prankster. My surprise three raccoons, one working the can already on it's side and the other two working to knock another one over. It was then that I remembered from growing up in rural Arkansas, just how smart and opportunist a raccoon can be, the "idiot" was me. Wasn't long after that, we had to cleanup a dog after it encountered a skunk. Rabbits and possums introduced me to the neighborhood as well, I wanted country lifestyle, and they were giving it to me Southern Cal. style!

I don't mind people hunting for food, even if its a North Korean eating a dog, people have to eat. I don't like trophy hunters with high powered weapons and local guides killing protected animals for a thrill and then bragging about it on social media.

Anybody remember that huge pig that was shot with a huge handgun a while back. It was somebodies pet its whole life, loved human interaction but got too big so he gave it to a farm. It ended up getting "hunted". At least a lion in the wild has a chance to make you his dinner.

The human population has pretty much made pets of a few animals and is driving the rest to extinction, which will cause us to suffer in the long run. There had to be a balance in nature between all the animals or things go very badly (extinction for the losers and starvation for the winners).