Have You Ever Lost Someone To Gun Violence?

After the craigslist gun post yesterday, I've been thinking a lot about guns. To try and catch more eyes, I will start a new post. One of the main reasons I am so in favour of gun restrictions is because when I was a teen, someone I knew was killed by gun violence. He was not armed. He was only sixteen. He was in my homeroom everyday until one day...he wasn't. We were not the best of friends but knew each other and I did know his best friend much better than I knew him and saw the changes his death caused.

So, has anyone else been affected by gun violence directly or indirectly?

I hope this thread can remain as civil a conversation as the previous one.

I understand your feelings about firearms and this is not meant to change your mind. It is only a different perspective.

No I do not know any one personally that has been killed by a firearm (other than in war), but do know a few that have been accidently shot. I taught a 12 year old girl how to swim after she was paralyzed from the waist down after being accidently shot by a classmate. Another friend gave up hunting after being accidently shot in a hunting accident.

I do know many individuals that have been killed in traffic accidents including one classmate that was hit by a car while sledding across a road. This does not keep me from driving nor does it make me want to ban vehicles. I still went sledding with my sons when they were growing up. It does make me more careful and supportive of safety procedures.

The same beliefs hold true with firearms. When my sons were growing up they were taught to treat every gun as if it was loaded. They were also taught that if they pointed a gun at something they better intend to kill it. The only gun loaded in my house at that time was my pistol and it was always with me. The guns were not locked up, but the ammunition was. The case of the young girl was a loaded gun left unattended that another minor was showing off. The case of the hunting accident was someone did not unload a gun when they got into a vehicle and it went off. Since my sons have left the house, all guns are loaded. If we ever have grandchildren, hours will be spent unloading guns and locking up the ammunition.

The irony of my situation, one of my sons is a gun rights supporter and lives in Wyoming. The other is in favor of gun control and lives in a metropolitan area on the east coast. Therefore I am respectful of both views and understand the views are based on upbringing and environment.

Thanks Patriot for your insight. I wasn't trying to change anyone's mind either (except the guy that wanted to bring a gun to pick up TVs). I am all about safety as well and whether it is a gun, grinder, car or any other number of things that can maim or kill, I always want to know that the safety and well being of everyone is kept first and foremost in everyone's mind.

Perhaps I should have made it a 2 part question. So, to see the flipside: Has anyone ever saved themselves or someone else by actually firing a gun (outside of military or police duties) and not just waving it around?

No I have not. I have seen some footage of civilians saving others, but I have not personally. Both of my parents are in there 80's and I am proud to say they both have CC permits, carry loaded guns in their vehicles, and I feel much better knowing this. It will be easier to take away their drivers licenses than their guns.

Interesting. I honestly just chuckled to myself at the thought of my mom carrying a gun, let alone firing one.

If you can and don't mind, can you explain why there is a need to conceal a weapon? I've never been able to figure out why that is a big deal nor why you would want to.

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Originally Posted by AdmiralAluminum

Thanks Patriot for your insight. I wasn't trying to change anyone's mind either (except the guy that wanted to bring a gun to pick up TVs). I am all about safety as well and whether it is a gun, grinder, car or any other number of things that can maim or kill, I always want to know that the safety and well being of everyone is kept first and foremost in everyone's mind.

Perhaps I should have made it a 2 part question. So, to see the flipside: Has anyone ever saved themselves or someone else by actually firing a gun (outside of military or police duties) and not just waving it around?

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I just want to say responsible gun owners never wave a gun around , that is what gangbangers do

Suicide, Yes. By someone else's hand, no. There are plenty of ways to kill yourself, can't blame the gun.

I knew a kid in high school who committed suicide with a firearm. Other than that, nope.

I don't concealed carry, but it's nice to have a gun around. If there's a skunk or racoon in the yard, a gun can solve that quickly.

Ditto on the cars- my grandfather always used to say that you should treat a car as if you're steering a V8 powered bullet.

Here in Wyoming, almost everyone has a gun. Gun crimes aren't bad at all in our area. It's the people, not the guns.

I can only explain it from my perspective, but I would like to refer you to an article Olddude mentioned in another post. I think he was referencing Gun Ownership Mandatory In Kennesaw, Georgia. If not I apologize, but I think it is along the same lines and something the news media does not care to cover. If you have interest just Google it.

Most laws state that if a firearm is not clearly visible from all directions, it is considered concealed. Therefore if it is under the seat, glove box, under a newspaper it is considered concealed. When I am away from home, I do not want a gun visible in my vehicle because it would invite theft. The same as a cell phone, computer, etc. would create. Since I never know what vehicle I might need, guns are kept in each out of eye sight. If I was pulled over for a traffic violation, a ticket could be issued for not having a permit (although I doubt that would happen in this part of the country.)

States have different requirements for issuing a permit, but most have some sort of training before they will issue the permit. This increases the safety of those holding the permits. Here you have to be approved by the sheriff. That might require a back ground check, interview, or in my case a cup of coffee.

Anyone can carry a weapon in open carry cities, counties, or even states. Most locals restrict rights around schools, government buildings, and specific structures. That means someone without knowledge of a firearm can carry a weapon in the open. This is great for hunters but I think it promotes problems within communities. From this perspective, people that advertise by carrying a weapon in plain sight are asking for trouble. The open carry activists from the other post that were removed from the restaurant is an example. I thought it was a stupid act on their part and because of their actions the business was robbed the next night. I do not believe showing off your guns reduces trouble, it begs for it. If the business had been robbed the night before, the open carry activists would have been the first to be shot, just like a guard in the old banks.

On the other hand the two businesses that welcome concealed weapons have never been robbed. Why? A robber would not know who is armed and who is not. Now imagine your mother is in this business and it is robbed. Do you think a criminal would give a second thought that she could be a threat. My mom would be and would not hesitate to step in.

Long story short, I do not believe open carry like the old west would benefit our society. The permits create an unknown that decreases crime. The one thing I do not like about permits is there is a record of who has them. I hope others chime in from both sides. As pointed out before, these discussions makes me reconsider my position, or learn to defend it better.

After reading the updates, I have to correct a previous statement. I have known individuals that have taken their life with a gun, but I also know others that used other methods.

Got to agree with you Patriot76 on pretty much everything on your last post. There is a push here in Texas by some folks for open carry, and the newly elected governor said he would sign it if a bill came up and was passed. I have to agree with you though, I cannot see any good coming of it, especially in a town or residential area. If I am out in a wooded area I will carry one (snakes, etc.). The vast majority of law abiding gun owners I have known have one very outstanding trait, and that is an huge abundance of common sense.

Wayne1956 - I would like to make one clarification, I like the open carry law, just not the idiots that abuse it. I am surprised Texas is not already an open carry state. I would have thought it would have been one of the first.

Thank you all for your input and opinions. All I wanted was a learning experience and I got one.

You mean everyone in Texas doesn't walk around with a gun on each hip??? Oh, how the media has deceived me yet again! JK LOL

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Originally Posted by AdmiralAluminum

Thank you all for your input and opinions. All I wanted was a learning experience and I got one.

You mean everyone in Texas doesn't walk around with a gun on each hip??? Oh, how the media has deceived me yet again! JK LOL

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You better smile when you say that Pilgrim!!! :D


Gotta love John Wayne

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Originally Posted by Patriot76

Wayne1956 - I would like to make one clarification, I like the open carry law, just not the idiots that abuse it. I am surprised Texas is not already an open carry state. I would have thought it would have been one of the first.

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I would be a more enthusiastic supporter of it if it would not cause a lot of apprehension among folks. That is my main concern

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Originally Posted by wayne1956

You better smile when you say that Pilgrim!!! :D


Gotta love John Wayne

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I do actually. Mostly for the accent.

Known anyone who's been shot? Yep. Quite a few actually. Some made it, some didn't.

Some shot while doing something stupid while young. Some shot for no reason. I've also known people who've been stabbed, killed in car crashes, beaten to death, or committed suicide.

So curious...why not ask all this about knives? Or regular violence? People die every day to various means. Gun control will not stop that.

Not picking a fight. I'm just curious. always about guns, no questions or bans about any other way people die by violent means.

Sirscrapalot - Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in the ocean. - Christopher Reeve

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Originally Posted by Sirscrapalot

Known anyone who's been shot? Yep. Quite a few actually. Some made it, some didn't.

Some shot while doing something stupid while young. Some shot for no reason. I've also known people who've been stabbed, killed in car crashes, beaten to death, or committed suicide.

So curious...why not ask all this about knives? Or regular violence? People die every day to various means. Gun control will not stop that.

Not picking a fight. I'm just curious. always about guns, no questions or bans about any other way people die by violent means.

Sirscrapalot - Either you decide to stay in the shallow end of the pool or you go out in the ocean. - Christopher Reeve

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Just cause guns were on my mind. Knives are just as dangerous. So is a tire iron, baseball bat, in the wrong hands. Heck, you could kill someone with a sharpened toothbrush (thanks jail TV shows). Yesterday's thread just brought up some old baggage out of the attic, so to speak. Too bad I can't scrap it or sell it online.

I have read a number of posts here depicting guns as a means of defense and intimidation. I have kept back some of my stronger views out of respect. I really just wanted a better understanding of why some of you obviously very intelligent people disagree with me so strongly. I know a little more now and am more informed thanks to you gents who didn't flame me and took the time to have civil words on the topic. Thank you again. It doesn't mean I'll be rushing out to by a locker full of guns, but I probably never will own one and that's my choice; and I respect yours.

When ever I go out on the road I take a great deal of comfort knowing that my "co-exist" bumper sticker will keep me safe. Personal safety is a personal responsibility, "the police always come late if they come at all". I forgot who sang that song long ago; but it's always the same story.

I like the discussion, AA. ;)

I was just curious an didn't mean that question to just you..but the mainstream in general. A good example, when Sandy Hook went down, everybody an their brother just about jumped on the ban gun bandwagon. When the college girl at Virginia Tech had her head chopped off in a cafeteria by a fellow student with a sword/knife(I forget which)..not a single word about banning knives or swords.

Dude runs around with a sword in Cali. Stabs 3 people. Nobody says a word.

I shoot a squirrel, everyone freaks the eff out. What a weird world we live in.

Anyhoo..Carry on. Pun not intended. LOL

Sirscrapalot - Laugh, it works wells in defusing a situation.

I lose a friend or acquaintance almost once a year to gun violence . Home invasions and thieves are abundant here in Baltimore no matter how much they fudge the numbers .

In the military I carried and used effectively.

In the civilian world I shot a man who survived. Attacked a woman with a knife, the intention had been to carjack her but she would not open her door. I witnessed this while traversing an adjacent parking lot. It was broad freakin' daylight. I drew and shot him in the back from about 150 feet (50 yards). I was unsure I could effectively stop what was happening if I had tried to close the distance. Bullet struck him in the left shoulder blade a few inches from his spine, right where I intended. To anyone else, even a cop that is a risky shot, even for me it has at least some risk. This happened in Baton Rouge Louisiana right at the bread basket/chevron station on Florida Ave coming off the I-110 interstate. The cops interviewed me for about ten minutes, reviewed the security footage and sent me on my way. I was active military at the time.

Second time and last time was a brandish. Pumping gas in Texarkana a crack head tried to get the jump on my by weaving through the gas pumps where I wouldn't see him coming. Knife versus Pistol, I told him to put the knife in the trash and run away as fast as he could. Problem solved.

Yall can say what you want about guns, for or against, like em or hate em...but the truth of the matter is the PEOPLE. I can give any one of you a gun and expect you to hit a man size target at 21 feet. People who've never fired one can do that. But if I make you do a couple laps and then fire off rounds over your head and give you 1.8 seconds to put one on the target 95% of you will miss...hell even cops miss. My point is pretty simple, leave the life saving and life taking to the just and capable. I do not and will not ever advocate the use of a firearm on a human being unless the threat exceeds the collateral damage.

How many of you would think about whats behind your target, or near it, or the possibility the target could be subdued, is the gun a gun or a painted toy? I mean yes, make the assumption that anything like that is deadly, however...this is not the wild west...as much as our testosterone might enjoy something like that. I don't ever wish something like a shooting on anyone, ever. Leave that stuff to the cops if you can. Protect your family, protect yourself and if you can do it without collateral protect others. I know guys who took the wrong life by accident, that is not something you ever live down, even if the accident was a decision you had to make based on the threat at the time.

metal that is terrible. thanks SirS. Y'all would be hard pressed to offend me. enquiring minds want to know. Thats why im here 20 times a day. LOL

Thank you very much greywolf. Thats exactly what I was looking for. Something that really justifies civilians being armed. That most likely could not happen in Canada because most of us even military would not be armed in public. Only the cops and robbers.

In a perfect world world maybe. Sadly there is no such thing and never will be. The world is not populated with perfect people.

10s of thousands have been killed in the last two decades with machetes and other home made weapons.

If every single gun in the world were to magically disappear tomorrow (including governments) I would gladly agree with you, sadly, that ain't gonna happen.

What is good for one country may not be good for another.

This is called realism, I'm a realist. There are many truths to any situation, but, the prevailing truth is always realism.

The realism in this country is that police officers no longer exist as the once were. They are law enforcers and investigators. That means they will investigate and arrest the degenerate punk that murders you,but, your still dead and your family and loved ones will still suffer the consequences of not being self protective.

I have only seen 3 murders in civilian life 2 by knife and one beaten to death. None of the three were armed.

My first wife and I were very good friends with another couple when we were in our early 20's. We worked hard and played even harder in those days. Not always smart choices, but we were young and doing what a lot of young people do. They actually got married before my ex and I, had a daughter months after the wedding. They fought and argued about everything after the daughter was born. Neither really ready for that huge responsibility. I won't use their names as it gets really sad! They eventually separated and divorced, but the fighting continued over care, custody, and money. We continued to have contact and remained friends with the wife, even baby sitting the daughter. I was actually friends with the husband for a long time before they met.

The wife met a new man, but they never married, but shared a home together. My wife nor I cared for him, he was a "punk" period. We lost track of them for several years. I ran into the husbands brother at a football game and he asked "Did you hear what happened?
". Turns out the new boyfriend had decided to rob the ex husband. The wife drove the car over to the ex's house, remained outside as the boyfriend, armed with a 9 mm pistol, invaded the home. Attempting to rob his girlfriends ex husband, he was clubbed by the husband. The husband gained control of the pistol, shot the intruder (boyfriend/punk) inside the home, killing him. The ex wife sped away when the shooting started. She had been noticed by one of the husbands neighbors, arrested that night. Tried and found guilty for accessory for the death of her own boyfriend and for the attempted "strong arm robbery" of her ex husband. She received a life sentence at the age of 27.

The daughter was at the home of the husband and that was what I just couldn't understand. Shows you never know what people will do over money. If you pull a gun on someone you better know what you are doing!

At least 4 0r 5, mostly from school, and my wifes cousin. Were not close to any of them. Most were victims of lifestyle choices.

This is by far the most "real" online conversation about gun control I have ever seen online. Everyone deserves a big pat on the back.

I honestly don't believe gun control or lack there of will change anything. After a shooting we feel the need to make sense of evil and find a simple answer. We don't want to admit that there is no quick fix. We also forget that some of the worst violence and distruction has come from Ryder trucks filled with fertilizer, airplanes, abusive parents, distracted/drunk drivers, drugs, and the list could go on and on.

Caring for each other, kindness, teaching, compassion,education, opportunity and action are some of the things that can make change, sometimes instantly.

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Originally Posted by AdmiralAluminum

metal that is terrible. thanks SirS. Y'all would be hard pressed to offend me. enquiring minds want to know. Thats why im here 20 times a day. LOL

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I lost my best friend about ten years ago , its a pretty sad story so I won't go into detail . But he was one of the best people I have ever met and I still think about him to this day .

Just an update on school massacres. The ninth worse in world history took place in 1989 in Canada. The worst in American History was in 1927 and did not involve guns. This was the second worse in world history only behind a Russian incident.

Just wanted to point out evil is not limited to location or weapons, it is only limited by individuals.

This is in response to different threads running simultaneously.

And it all goes far beyond Patriot76's examples. :(

I would feel better if we could carry handguns at all here. If you want to take your hand gun out you have to tell the police and you can go straight to the range and straight back.

I don't believe I know anyone killed by a gun. A family friend (a girl, we were both around 20-21 at the time) was raped and killed with a knife. It was never proven, or even investigated as such (as far as I know), but the book written about Danny Rolling documented him passing thru Sarasota at the time, and the murder fit his style. I wish I could have put a bullet in the head of the animal that killed her and spared her life.

I grew up in Wilmington Delaware, ( currently #9 on most dangerous city's). Lost close friends to gun violence and drugs ,this was late sixties early 70's .Many I knew back than are dead or in prison for ever.A judge who grew up with my pop gave me a choice jail or military. I decided to get paid. Joining the Marine Corps saved my life, and it taught me many things ,too many to list here. I've been hospitalized for three weeks before, if I had been carrying I would have been OK and the 4 punks who wanted my sub (hoagie) and $20 would have been locked up. Needless to say I carry and iam legal. I don't get the whole thing about guns today. But it is an issue that iam willing to go to extremes to defend "My Right " to own one. I take offense , when someone say me owning a firearm is the problem with the violence in my country. Do your research before you point your finger. There is more gun violence in the city's that have sticker gun laws than the ones that don't. Many people have died for our rights and willing to to keep them.
2nd amendment makes us citizens
Take away it makes us subjects.

Like to add that iam a firm believer in calling the police when needed. They are trained to deal with situations that the average citizen is not equipped to deal with. I have the utmost respect for law enforcement in this country. Especially the ones in the big cities.
I carry for those times that I am prevented from walking away from a situation.

Yes, beardo, I must say I figured this thread would be derailed by flames 15-20 feet high.

I understand much better now. I see why some have taken offense and that was not my intent. I don't have an issue with anyone responsibly handling a firearm. My position is that, and I know this is where we disagree, with greater restrictions on guns, ownership, availability, and right to bare/carry, the ability of a criminal to have a gun is restricted, because if they are not already in jail, they are just one us, anonymous and free to commit their crimes. If the law of the land is no guns, someone selling, moving or using one is going to attract much more attention and makes it easier for them to be apprehended. If nobody wants guns available, it's preventative. If everyone can have a gun, it's reactionary. Neither one stops crime completely. It's just 2 different approaches.

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Originally Posted by Longhairboy

I would feel better if we could carry handguns at all here. If you want to take your hand gun out you have to tell the police and you can go straight to the range and straight back.

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I would like to know what it is that makes you want to carry in NB, Longhairboy? Not trying to single you out but you're the only Canuck that I have noticed reply to this.

I would really like to hear some international input... hint, hint.

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Originally Posted by AdmiralAluminum

Yes, beardo, I must say I figured this thread would be derailed by flames 15-20 feet high.

I understand much better now. I see why some have taken offense and that was not my intent. I don't have an issue with anyone responsibly handling a firearm. My position is that, and I know this is where we disagree, with greater restrictions on guns, ownership, availability, and right to bare/carry, the ability of a criminal to have a gun is restricted, because if they are not already in jail, they are just one us, anonymous and free to commit their crimes. If the law of the land is no guns, someone selling, moving or using one is going to attract much more attention and makes it easier for them to be apprehended. If nobody wants guns available, it's preventative. If everyone can have a gun, it's reactionary. Neither one stops crime completely. It's just 2 different approaches.

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I guess you believe in Santa Claus too.
All that happens when you make guns illegal is create a big black market for them. Which is where criminals are getting guns now. A convicted felon is this country can not legally own a firearm. I swear I hear more death threats coming from a " bleeding heart" liberal when they are robbed ,mugged, or just car vandalized. People jump on this "band wagon" that guns are the problem. People kill people!! So should I just lay down and die. Well that ain't gonna happen. I hope you never have to eat your words. I wish no ill will on anyone.
Fact is there is a lot a crazy desperate people in the world. Its just smart too be prepared.

If someone was to kill someone with a baseball bat/knife, should we ban baseball bats/knives? Guns don't kill people, people kill people.


Sorry if this offends anyone, I'm a strong supporter of the 2nd amendment.

To add on to something Junk mentioned. He said in his post

There is more gun violence in the city's that have sticker gun laws than the ones that don't.

Full article at Scrap Metal Forum: http://www.scrapmetalforum.com/off-t...#ixzz3Re0u0HL0

I've mentioned before having been raised, an lived in or around Washington, DC in my younger years. DC had a very strict rule on handguns. It was illegal to own one. Let alone carry. Guess what it did for our crime rates? Nothing. All through the 80s, DC was either number 1 for murder/violent crimes, or in the top 3. Anyone from Chicago can say the same. Very Strict. Yet..tons of gun and gang violence. Just two examples of why banning guns won't work, an just proves the statments by Oldude an many many others "If you ban guns only the criminals will have them". That was proven in two cities. High Murder Rates, High Police brutality claims, etc. Not sure if the Brutality really changes much but the rates are high for both cities, or were.

And that's all I got to say about that. (for now..haha!)

Sirscrapalot - We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender. - Winston Churchill

Nope still not offended. I prefer apples you prefer oranges.

I haven't been avoiding the question, just haven't gotten to it yet. I've already stated that many things can be used as weapons. Almost anything I suppose. My first point about guns is they are a ranged weapon. It is difficult to kill someone with a knife or bat unless you are close to them. You can kill with a gun from a distance. Someone using a bat or knife is far less likely to cause collateral damage. Everyone of you with a gun has always hit the target? If you want to perform violence on someone, I think you should be close enough to see their face.

If you are being held at gunpoint, running is not much of an option, where a knife or bat or whatever else at least allows that option. The range of the weapon puts too much power in one person's hand. As Olddude pointed out, all the guns won't just disappear, but that doesn't mean everyone should have one, in my opinion. Fertilizer was mentioned, like other substances that can be made into explosives. Is there no restrictions on these materials? Can everyone just go and get some in case they get bombed, so they can bomb back? Or have restrictions been implemented to prevent this? What's the difference between shooting someone from fifty feet or blowing them up from 5 miles away?

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Originally Posted by AdmiralAluminum

Nope still not offended. I prefer apples you prefer oranges.

I haven't been avoiding the question, just haven't gotten to it yet. I've already stated that many things can be used as weapons. Almost anything I suppose. My first point about guns is they are a ranged weapon. It is difficult to kill someone with a knife or bat unless you are close to them. You can kill with a gun from a distance. Someone using a bat or knife is far less likely to cause collateral damage. Everyone of you with a gun has always hit the target? If you want to perform violence on someone, I think you should be close enough to see their face.

If you are being held at gunpoint, running is not much of an option, where a knife or bat or whatever else at least allows that option. The range of the weapon puts too much power in one person's hand. As Olddude pointed out, all the guns won't just disappear, but that doesn't mean everyone should have one, in my opinion. Fertilizer was mentioned, like other substances that can be made into explosives. Is there no restrictions on these materials? Can everyone just go and get some in case they get bombed, so they can bomb back? Or have restrictions been implemented to prevent this? What's the difference between shooting someone from fifty feet or blowing them up from 5 miles away?

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I have had two different times in the last 5 years where I was carrying that saved my life and more importantly my wife's. If you have never been confronted with "real" violence and the evil that comes with it , than you really don't have anything to base your opinion on.

The last thing I would want to do is take a life ,no matter who the individual is.
In those two times stated above I didn't even need to draw my weapon. I just unzipped my jacket and it was over.

Most thugs are like bullies ,they prey on the weak.
Like I said before its better to be prepared. I don't strap on my weapon in hopes that I get to use it. I pray that I never will need to discharge my firearm while it pointed at another person. Americans get a bad rep about guns.