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When summer came along, I was looking for a cheap fan for those hot & humid days we tend to get around here. Wound up buying the cheapest model they had at Walmart. With a little modification to include some kind of a stand, this might work as a small table fan. If only I'd seen this sooner, I might have tried it. If anyone tries it to use as a tabletop cooling fan, let me know how it works out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PDeK6rprA4
Dude.
No.
I'll let Scott explain... but.... No.
Paging NobleMetalWorks to the white courtesy phone, please...
This has been addressed in a few other threads. You cannot power ANYTHING with a magnet. Magnets have NO energy. Magnetism is a force, but does not have any energy of it's own. Magnetism can be used to convert energy from one form to another, all of our electrical systems are based on magnetism, but it has no energy to power anything. The first law of thermodynamics is Energy can be neither created nor destroyed. A magnet with no energy cannot create energy, but can be used to convert energy from one form to another, which is why we use them in motors.Quote:
Originally Posted by billygoat
I make and sell solar generators from scrap UPSs I find. These are often referred to as "free energy generators" which just isn't true. They get their energy from the sun's radiation which is converted into AC that we use in common devices. If you put the generator in a dark closet and it has no access to light, eventually all the energy stored in the batteries will be lost and it will not work.
Any type of motor has some type of energy source. It could be solar, fossil fuel, nuclear, wind, ect.. but there has to be some kind of energy introduced to work. It's an undisputed law of physics.
First I'll explain how this person made it look like they were generating free power. By the way, it's a motor, not an engine. And then I will explain why magnets on the outside cannot drive the motor from the inside.
At about 19 second into the video, the fan is removed and placed upside down in the top right hand corner of the screen. You can see the shaft, and the ring magnet colored black/grey that runs along the inside of the fan, keep this in mind. That's how the motor works, by repulsion from the inside of the magnetic ring, not the outside.
Remember also that after he takes off the fan, he points out the copper coils and even states they are electromagnets, which need electricity in order to create an electromagnetic field.
He then goes on to explain that the electromagnets are firing at four different directions, but if you look closely, you will see that each copper coil has a plate connected to it, that is generating an electromagnetic field, the copper coils are not generating a electromagnetic field in the way he makes it seem, as a steady stream in a line with his pen, they are generating a magnetic field in the same of the curves piece of metal at the top of each copper coil.
If you notice at 1:22 into the video, he cuts the wire, rather dramatically. But also notice that the scene is cut to the fan already placed on the carpet, with the power wires nowhere to be seen. It's connected under the carpet to a power source somewhere. It's obvious he is either operating a switch off camera, or someone else is. Not only that but he doesn't cut the wires close to the electromagnets in the center of the fan, but leaves a length of wire still connected.
He then demonstrates that when he places the magnets around the fan, then places the fan in the housing it works, then, at 1:52 minutes into the video, he removes two of the magnets and the fan is still spinning, then finally stops after all the magnets are removed, at about 2:03 minutes into the video, you can see the motor start to spin even before he places the last magnet. If the magnets were creating an magnetic field, they would have to be perfectly placed at exact distances away from the center, then removing or even just disturbing one would cause the entire motor to stop, that's IF the center ring magnet in the fan were orientated properly. I'll go into that later.
Now remember you saw the fan continue to operate until all the magnets were removed, then saw it operate even before the last magnet was placed. At 2:09 minutes he then demonstrates the motor will not work, if just one magnet is taken away.
The next model is far easier to pick apart.
You will notice as he is showing the magnets taped to the next "prototype" at 2:24 minutes into the video, that the one corner where there is no magnet, there is tap on the corner, why? That is because under that tape there is a battery.
At 2:28 minutes into the video he places the fan in the center, but if you notice his finger is blocking the fan from spinning. Even before he places the last magnet, he is preventing the fan from spinning.
If you watch very closely, at 2:29 minutes into the video, right after he places the fan in the housing, the fan moves all on it's on, just a fraction before he catches it with his finger and stops it. This is how we know there is a power source somewhere driving the electromagnets on the inside of the fan.
Then after he tapes the magnet on the corner, at 2:38 he removes his finger from between the fan blades, and the fan operates.
Also notice he makes a point of handling the fan, flipping it over, showing that it's totally free of anything outside, but he did not do this with the first fan, it actually stayed in place, on the table, without moving. THEN at 2:48 minutes into the video, he flips the fan over and guess what, you can see the wires that go to the center of the fan, that supply the electromagnets with power, run directly into the corner I said he taped the batter into before taping on the magnet. It's pretty obvious how the fan motor is being supplied power.
Finally at 3:07 minutes into the video, explaining as he does that the only way to stop the motor is to remove the magnet, he actually digs his finger in under the tapped over battery, and removes the battery, and magnet at the same time, thus causing the motor to stop spinning.
If you watch very closely, you can see the extra round disk under the magnets, he actually folds the tape over it to make it less obvious.
He was very clever in the way that he places the fan on the carpet, and then cuts each part of the video when doing different demonstrations. A little less clever in the second one, he slips up and shows a few mistakes that make it easier to figure out what he has done. Each scene was set up to give a specific impression, but each scene is staged to mislead on purpose.
Now, as to why this cannot work!
The center electromagnets, the ones with the copper coils, run on electricity, not magnetism. They need electricity to create an electromagnetic field. Magnets do not broadcast electricity, they broadcast magnetic fields. So the only way for the center electromagnets to be supplied electricity is via the wire that you saw so dramatically cut, but remember the wire was never cut at the motor, there was a length of it still connection to the fan.
Also, in order for the ring magnet to work inside the fan, as you saw when the fan was flipped over, you would have to be providing a magnetic field INSIDE the fan housing itself, another reason why the magnets on the outside would not have worked.
Anyone who has pulled apart an electrical motor will notice how close the magnets are to the electromagnets. There is a good reason for this. Magnetic fields are not projected very far from the magnet itself. It would take a huge amount of energy, and an extremely powerful electromagnet to provide a strong enough magnetic field to reach across all the distance from the outside of the fan, to the center of the fan. Not only that, but the orientation of the ring magnet on the inside of the fan would have to be reversed, but EVEN at that, it wouldn't work because the fan motor works by concentrating it's force towards the center of the fan and creating a repulsion against the field generated by the electromagnets on the inside of the fanT
I don't even need to get into the laws of therodynamics to explain why this is just simply not possible.
But I will...
First law of thermodynamics - Conservation of energy. Energy can be transformed from one form to another, but it can't be created or destroyed. That is to say, you cannot get something for nothing, because matter and energy are the same, and conserved.
Second law of thermodynamics - Entropy. Systems always flow to a state of disorder. You cannot break even, you cannot return to the same energy state, there is always an increase in disorder; entropy always increases.
Friction occurs when molecules of one thing come in contact with molecules of another thing. When you rub your hands together for example, heat is generated. This is energy being expended, or for our purposes, lost and cannot be regained or recovered. The fan causes friction, which is energy lost, you have to recover this energy from somewhere and in this case it would be from an electrical source.
Think about driving your car down a flat highway. Bring your car up to speed. Go ahead, whatever speed you want, there is no speed limit here on the forum. Now take your foot off the accelerator. What happens? You car is going to slow down and eventually stop because of air resistance (friction between the air outside and the body of your car), rolling resistance between your tires and the road (or friction between asphalt and rubber) because gravity (external force) is pulling your car towards the earth, and the internal friction between all the working parts of your car (pistons, wheel bearings, crank shaft, etc.)
Basically, everything in the universe wants to go to a state of disorder. Buildings don't build themselves, and when they're built, they fall down. Heat always flows from hot to cold. Everything dies. Everything falls apart. Maybe one day the universe will start collapsing in on itself, time will reverse itself, and this won't be the case. But in the known lifespan of the universe (13.75 billion years or more) entropy has always, 100% of the time, increased. A perpetual motion machine would result in no net disorder, which has never happened in 13.75 billion+ years.
Magnets eventually wear out and need to be recharged, just like batteries. There are ways of scavenging energy, for example use the heat generated through friction to boil water, to create steam, to drive a turbine, to turn a generator, to generate electricity but you are STILL loosing energy. You can generate electricity via solar panels, but that is really radiation converted to electricity that was originally created by fusion in the center of our sun, which also will eventually burn out.
There is no such thing as free energy.
Scott
Yes, the laws of physics are actually the LAWS of physics.
Thanks, Scott
To the OP, billygoat,
I can really appreciate the spirit in which I believe you intended your post. I think it's great. As humans, we need to find other ways to accumulate the energy we need to sustain our way of life, specially now that so many others want to improve theirs, and figure out more efficient ways of using the energy we do have. I commend you on thinking outside the box, and I hope my post doesn't discourage you in any way from looking for other, better ways of providing and using energy. My post wasn't so much to defunct your post, but to state the truth about what the youtube poster was leading people to believe. He wants people to subscribe to his thread, and view his video for some reason.
Anyway, I just wanted to temper what I said with what I think about the spirit in which this thread was posted.
Scott
Haters gunna hate! lol
Who is hating on who?Quote:
Originally Posted by happyisthealero
Drive by trollers, phffft.
Scott
Thanks, Scott. I usually pride myself on not being gullible, but this time I was "gulled" pretty good. I don't usually seek out "other, better ways of providing and using energy," but if I should stumble upon something I'm always willing to give it a try if it is cheap and within my reach.
No, I'm not a physicist. Never will be. Don't have enough brain power for that stuff. Well actually I do, but to start at square one and build forward would just be too much for me at this time.
I'm appreciative that you took the time to explain how the guy hoodwinked me. All that talk about physics, energy creation, and gobbledygook does nothing for me. The most I can do in response to that is to give a blank, glassy-eyed stare, something I'm quite adept at. But explaining how he pulled a "sleight of hand" trick or two to make it seem legit does wonders for me. Thanks again.
As human beings, and specially if you are an honest person, you expect other human beings to generally be honest. It says a lot about your Character, honestly. =)Quote:
Originally Posted by billygoat
I wouldn't feel bad at all about any of this. You have to first disbelieve before you can see what I saw, and the only reason I saw what I did is because I am already convinced that it's not possible, so for me everything that comes after is a scam. You were willing to believe because you are a good, honest person and think outside the box. Matter of fact, it takes an intelligent, thoughtful person to even be ready to accept possibilities outside what other people think. Contrary to what you might think, your posting of this leads me to believe you are more intelligent than the average person, probably more intelligent than you give yourself credit for.
The person who posted the video has some experience being dishonest, it's the words he says as he is doing the video that lead you to believe something other than the truth.
I have a pretty solid background in psychology, there were other factors that quickly led me to believe that this person was lying, even before I saw where he was misleading the viewers. First, his hands are way too well manicured, this guy hasn't seen a days worth of work, ever. Second was his accent. I have never, with the exception of one time, in all my traveling all over the world ever heard an accent like that, or anything close. Specially from someone with white skin, except for one time. That was the movie Borat, which was a fictitious person/character from a fictitious country. I suspect the person who made the video was someone who spoke English as their native tongue, the words they chose to use, and the way they put their sentences together were just exactly like someone who spoke English as their first language.
Also remember, scam artists are most of the time, the nicest most wonderful people you would ever meet. They are convincing in a way other people are not. They work very hard to seem that way in order to make their scam work. It's what they practice at doing, their entire life. You don't practice your entire life to catch scam artists. Matter of fact, if a scam artist puts in the time required just to be a partial success, even they were lazy, they would still fool the majority of people just because they have spent far more time practicing how to deceive than others have practiced how to catch them.
Anyway, it was an interesting post.
Scott
Yes, good topic.
I had a guy that brings me computer parts all the time, then he started bringing me some hard drives that were torn apart. He said was working on making a fan run with the magnets. I'll bet that he saw the same video.
Just remember that energy is a constant. You can not create more energy than what is being consumed, and you can't destroy it either. The trick is the end result rating of efficiency. We had an old timer at the local saloon a few years back that fell for one of those adds about the space heaters in the Amish built cabinets. He paid $600 for a space heater that has an efficiency rating less than a $30 oil filled electric heater. But he fell for the hype. Did he save money on his heating bill? yes he did, because he heated whatever room he was in rather than heat the entire house. The same could have ben achieved from that $30 oil filled heater. I looked them up on consumer reports and not only were the efficiency ratings lower, they were a fire hazard if they tipped over where again the $30 oil filled heater would shut off automatically if it tipped over.
My point? When anyone touts the energy saving principles or even the never ending energy or perpetual motion, always listen with a skeptical ear.
Things to look for that are making improvements are better batteries for energy storage, cheaper solar panels to cut the initial investment in setting up a system, and gulf stream turbines.
One last note. Perpetual motion is a fallacy, or is it? Maybe it's just relative. The sun bombards us with energy every second of the day. It has done that well before the day I was born and I am fairly certain that it will do so long after I have passed. Therefore to me there is a never ending source of energy if I can just harness it cheaply enough. So, relative to me and my lifespan, there is free energy all around us.
seems like a lot of wasted effort. Making a false video just to get a few youtube views.
I think some people get paid for having people view their video's.Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerFlyer4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4FFgEFBRoo
Unless you have multiple videos that go viral, It would be hard to make GOOD money.
But, like this guy, you could treat it as a job. Work hard at sucking people in with fake videos.
Paying people for making popular videos is a good thing. But, with all good things there is always a few turds that ruin it for everyone else.
Some people do it for the attention, some people do it so they can point a finger in another video on another youtube account and discount it, some people do it in the hope someone will message them for plans or offer to pay for their research. There are any number of reasons why the person made a video like this, but what is certain is that he did make the video, and it is totally misleading if not an outright lie. To go through all the trouble there must be some reason.
Scott
Well said Scott. I had to tell a friend this basically today. He was looking at those silly "Refining is so easy, anyone can do it" type videos on youtube. We had a good long heart to heart an told him if I found he was following some BS youtube video claiming it was easy, I'd personally shove my foot so far up his you know what he could tie my shoe laces with his teeth. He understood an was rather pissed at the maker of the video after I explained a few things to him, an showed him the GRF forum. I'm just glad he talked to me about it before trying it. He now has no desire to refine at all, after seeing the risks associated with it without studying your butt off an learning the proper way. Cause of some jackass claiming it was so easy, he could have put his wife, an two kids at risk.
Lots of good knowledge an videos out there, but a lot of bad ones to. :mad:
Sirscrapalot - Not a fan of hookwinkers an snake oil sales men.
The great thing about all this is that it is an easy thing to debunk because we all have access to the parts and it wouldn't take more than 10 minutes to put it all together and see for ourselves. And it doesn't require a PhD :)
You know, I was thinking the same thing and almost made the suggestion that other people try it, but I didn't want to create a new problem with people discussing how to do it properly. But you are right, even I have the components, probably on my desk right now if I bothered to move things around to look for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by shendog
Scott
Here are a few systems on ebay that always make me laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirscrapalot
Refine at Home Portable System with Fumes Purification for Scrap Gold Recovery | eBay
Refine at Home Portable System with Air Purification for Scrap Gold Recovery | eBay
Gold and Silver Refining Nox Wet Scrubbing System Brand New NO2 Lab Scrubber | eBay
While those I posted above are pretty obvious failures, this next particular system has sold hundreds of them, problem is that it doesn't work very well but worse, whenever you have a problem and attempt to talk with someone about it, there is no response. I have seen more posts on GRF on this refining system, from people desperate for help, than any other system. I know of two people who have had serious accidents using this system. So although I am posting these to make fun of them, I hope nobody takes any of this as an endorsement, and I would strongly suggest not buying any of these systems, but specially not this next one.
Ishor Simplicity Scrap Gold Platinum Refining System | eBay
People will say whatever they have to, in order to separate you from reason, then next you from your money.
Scott
Yep. I have all the components too, so I went ahead & put one together just now.Quote:
Originally Posted by NobleMetalWorks
Of course, it didn't work.
The accent didn't jive with the hands and seemed a little to fake to me.
I do too. Problem is that I just don't have time to play around right now. So, thinking it worked, I thought I'd post it so someone else can benefit from it. At least that was my thinking at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by shendog
But now that I know it doesn't work, it saves me from having to dig up all the hard drive magnets I strategically planted around the house to keep the aliens away.
Oh sure, I'll bet you are going to debunk that one too. But I am firmly convinced it works, since not one alien has visited my house.
Too funny... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by billygoat
Okay, this might seem funny but it's the truth. I have EM targets on my desk, in my cell phone and strategically placed around my house and business. That's not far off from having magnets to keep away Aliens, although the scientific evidence might be a little more convincing.
What type of magnets do you use to keep the alien critters away?
Scott
They are the Neodymium hard drive magnets. They have a special quality to them that they throw off the aliens' discombobulators and make mind reading almost impossible. I made sure to put them magnet side up, leaving the brackets on like the instructions said.Quote:
Originally Posted by NobleMetalWorks
How do you know that for sure as they could have arrived as the mailman, pool cleaner, any other service person. They will take up human form to keep from scaring us, you know.Quote:
But now that I know it doesn't work, it saves me from having to dig up all the hard drive magnets I strategically planted around the house to keep the aliens away.
Oh sure, I'll bet you are going to debunk that one too. But I am firmly convinced it works, since not one alien has visited my house.
......
Well, let me put it this way: I haven't yet been *mumbles* probed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechanic688
Oh, and Grouchy -- not a good idea. With a little extra momentum, a metal object can be um, let's just say painful.
Looks like the tool kit for the Do-It-At-Home Project Kit #48: VasectomyQuote:
Originally Posted by grouchyolddude
Parker beat me to it..I was going to say you all could keep your fancy magnets for dealing with Aliens, I'll stick to my tin foil hat.
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...KCV5OFOIuPKbnt
http://p6d01d57scwksv19.zippykid.net...at-249x300.jpg
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/...n_foil_hat.jpg
http://torwars.com/wp-content/upload...at-500x400.jpg
http://atechnologyjobisnoexcuse.com/...n-foil-hat.jpg
Sirscrapalot - What are you gonna do, talk the alien to death? - James Cameron