Smelter

I have been looking into making a forage Smelter so I can make some bars of copper and other metals I have, I feel having some copper as such will be a good investment in time. I was wondering if any one has ever made a charcoal forage Smelter from what i see on you tube with an air source they get super hot . I feel it is a safer choice as it is a slower process with charcoal (heating up) I also feel it might be more incognito , as all that you have is a vac blowing air which can even be done from a vac a distance away . A vac is a normal sound in the back round .
A propane tank sounds like a jet and that will be very noticed. I assume a touch of Cole could also be used .
Any thoughts

a dc blower fan will be even quieter and also give you variable control of air flow

https://www.google.com/#safe=off&scl...w=1264&bih=578

You could also use a leaf blower, that is a common sound in a back yard. Also look into using fire brick to build the furnace, its a bit pricey but you can tear it down when cooled off and stack the bricks in a corner of your yard when not being used. It also holds the heat in well. There is also a cotton type batting you can also use inside of it to insulate the outside of it from getting too hot to the touch. If you are going to cast anything make sure that the mold is completely dry as the molten metal when it hits water or condensation will cause a steam explosion which will send molten metal everywhere. There are some good you tube videos on how to make a homemade furnace and how to cast metals.

Let me know if you come across a good design for one. I'm considering basically doing the same thing in my "spare" time....whenever that might be. I'm stockpiling small amounts of copper each day. If you need a fan I have pulled a bunch of working fans out of dehumidifiers that have about a 12" diameter and run fairly quiet. They also come mounted on a bracket that can easily be attached to a homemade housing. Always willing to share ideas and materials :)

BackyardMetalcasting.com....take a look here to start.

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Originally Posted by BRASSCATCHER

BackyardMetalcasting.com....take a look here to start.

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This is probably the best answer, check out that forum and you will soon have so many answers to choose from, that it will make your decision that much more difficult. But that particular site to smelting is what this site is to scrap. I'm a member over there as well!

Scott

well I have some reading thats for sure

You an me both Copperhead. Leave it to Scott and BC to find yet another forum for me to peruse and learn.

:p

Sirscrapalot - A person without a sense of humor is like a wagon without springs. It's jolted by every pebble on the road. - Henry Ward Beecher

Well lets pose this question ?
aluminum radiators with copper from AC's , wile I did try cutting AL (scoring)
then pulling out copper pipe, but for me I felt it was worse then TV's
Particular cause some of them rad's are multi level THICK
BUT if you have a forge it seems to me you could pre cut rads to chunk size and first melt AL the copper should float to surface like a dross putting fresh chunks of AL rads will cool the mix down as you work . then Next work on copper
Any way just a thought.

Residual freon oil could be a factor

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Originally Posted by Copper Head

Well lets pose this question ?
aluminum radiators with copper from AC's , wile I did try cutting AL (scoring)
then pulling out copper pipe, but for me I felt it was worse then TV's
Particular cause some of them rad's are multi level THICK
BUT if you have a forge it seems to me you could pre cut rads to chunk size and first melt AL the copper should float to surface like a dross putting fresh chunks of AL rads will cool the mix down as you work . then Next work on copper
Any way just a thought.

Residual freon oil could be a factor

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I have a world of respect for people who are adept at the art of smelting or pyrometallurgy for that matter. Hydro (wet chemical) and electro (electrolysis) metallurgical processes take more formal education, that can be learned from books and practiced through observation with a high degree of success. But when you get into the more difficult forms of pyrometallurgy processes it requires a certain amount of talent. I am not talking about just melting a bunch of copper, but actually separating, fluxing off impurities, making alloys, pouring molds, and on and on. And the fluxes can be so complex, and react in violent ways that it takes a keen sense of what is going on to understand how to properly manipulate your melt.

If I get a chance, I'll post some videos of some melts I am planning on doing in the very near future.

While I don't consider myself an expert on anything, I do think I'm much better at electrometallurgy and hydrometallurgy than I am at pyrometallurgy, but there is something primal about pyrometallurgy that makes it feel more rewarding than any of the others. I'm not sure if it's the fire aspect, or the physical interaction with the molten metals or just the the strength and exertion required to manipulate the equipment but it's incredibly rewarding, and you can make a decent living if you are working with the right materials.

If you are planning on separating the copper from the aluminum, the best way to do this would be to use a hydrometallurgical process (chemical) because when melted, copper and aluminum form an alloy that is difficult to separate. If you do melt the two together, you would then need to either atomize them into very small particles, then subject them to different acids to dissolve one metal before another, or upgrade one metal so that there is more of it to dissolve, then cast into an anode bar so you can then use an electrometallurgical process to dissolve the copper, leaving the aluminum behind as anode slime.

Aluminum is very difficult to refine, in my opinion it is one of the most difficult. It takes a smelting process with an electrical process. The idea is to turn a specially formulated flux into a molten liquid, then apply electricity to the molten material under pressure to get a good separation.

The other way you might be able to separate Al from Cu is to use a collector metal, but even then if the collector metal used has an affinity for copper for example, you will still leave small amounts of copper behind, and take into the collector metal small amounts of Al, you would still need to subject the resulting metals to wet chemistry in order to get a refined product.

What I usually tell people in these situations, is this. Cut out all the pure metals you can and collect the fused or alloyed metals to either be sold to your local scrap yard, or to represent at a refinery that is equipped to process that type of material, and ask to be paid on a full accountability so you also recover the values of any other metals that are considered impurities but might be worth money.

Scott

All in all an interesting thread but I want to point out one thing that I Scott just said.

" ask to be paid on a full accountability so you also recover the values of any other metals that are considered impurities but might be worth money."

Which is one of of the things that are of interest to me in this ewaste business, am I getting paid for the other materials contained in them.

I find that the use of proper terminalogy is helpful. If I had enough ewaste to deal directly with a refinner I would now demand to be paid ""on a full accountability". Thanks to all and especially Scott. Mike.

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Originally Posted by miked

All in all an interesting thread but I want to point out one thing that I Scott just said.

" ask to be paid on a full accountability so you also recover the values of any other metals that are considered impurities but might be worth money."

Which is one of of the things that are of interest to me in this ewaste business, am I getting paid for the other materials contained in them.

I find that the use of proper terminalogy is helpful. If I had enough ewaste to deal directly with a refinner I would now demand to be paid ""on a full accountability". Thanks to all and especially Scott. Mike.

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When dealing with any metal, there are always other metals associated with it. If you are however only dealing with 100 lbs of 99.99 fine copper for example, you will have 99.99 lbs of copper but only .01 lbs of something else. As you increase the amount, so does the likely hood you will accumulated a sizable amount of other metals so that 1000 lbs might yield .1 lbs and 10,000 lbs might yield 1 lb. You can see my point.

Sometimes 99.95 or 95.0 fine copper is better to represent at a refiner rather than 99.99. in this case.

This is why for example, some refineries, will pay you 95% spot on sterling silver, upon assay, because they know they will make the money on the other metals used to alloy the silver to make it sterling. Many times there is a sizable amount of gold associated with the sterling that when accumulated becomes a sizable amount. Or even other metals, like Palladium or Platinum.

Scott

Take a copper rad put it to fire the AL is gone leaving the copper behind Now AL melts at 1220 copper at 1983 Fahrenheit
now not to incriminate myself I have seen in a fire pit that does hit 1220 as I have seen AL items disappear but to be later found as a rock formation looking thing and sure enough it's AL , this result can occur when you have a good base of spent ash for the melting AL to settle at . Wile AL does it s disappearing act copper is fine and dandy only in need of a cold douse of water . I have never seen CU melt in a pit but yes you can turn it ashy brittle . Rads from AC's are not an alloy they are separate metals I have to assume AL would melt first as it does in a pit .Yet the fins of AL on a RAD do burn gone easy.I would assume if it did melt much would burn away as a loss
I know of some coins made of AL & CU the concept of recapturing the CU & AL must be what you mentioned
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In time I will learn but I will be as I am a core individual . I get done with minimal scientific terms But I see and understand results and figure ways just the same .
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Metal Melting Point
(oC) (oF)

Admiralty Brass 900 - 940 1650 - 1720
Aluminum 660 1220
Aluminum Alloy 463 - 671 865 - 1240
Aluminum Bronze 600 - 655 1190 - 1215
Antimony 630 1170
Babbitt 249 480
Beryllium 1285 2345
Beryllium Copper 865 - 955 1587 - 1750
Bismuth 271.4 520.5
Brass, Red 1000 1832
Brass, Yellow 930 1710
Cadmium 321 610
Cast Iron, gray 1175 - 1290 2150 - 2360
Chromium 1860 3380
Cobalt 1495 2723
Copper 1084 1983
Cupronickel 1170 - 1240 2140 - 2260
Gold, 24K Pure 1063 1945
Hastelloy C 1320 - 1350 2410 - 2460
Inconel 1390 - 1425 2540 - 2600
Incoloy 1390 - 1425 2540 - 2600
Iridium 2450 4440
Iron, Wrought 1482 - 1593 2700 - 2900
Iron, Gray Cast 1127 - 1204 2060 - 2200
Iron, Ductile 1149 2100
Lead 327.5 621
Magnesium 650 1200
Magnesium Alloy 349 - 649 660 - 1200
Manganese 1244 2271
Manganese bronze 865 - 890 1590 - 1630
Mercury -38.86 -37.95
Molybdenum 2620 4750
Monel 1300 - 1350 2370 - 2460
Nickel 1453 2647
Niobium (Columbium) 2470 4473
Osmium 3025 5477
Palladium 1555 2831
Phosphorus 44 111
Platinum 1770 3220
Plutonium 640 1180
Potassium 63.3 146
Red Brass 990 - 1025 1810 - 1880
Rhenium 3186 5767
Rhodium 1965 3569
Ruthenium 2482 4500
Selenium 217 423
Silicon 1411 2572
Silver, Coin 879 1615
Silver, Pure 961 1761
Silver, Sterling 893 1640
Sodium 97.83 208
Steel, Carbon 1425 - 1540 2600 - 2800
Steel, Stainless 1510 2750
Tantalum 2980 5400
Thorium 1750 3180
Tin 232 449.4
Titanium 1670 3040
Tungsten 3400 6150
Uranium 1132 2070
Vanadium 1900 3450
Yellow Brass 905 - 932 1660 - 1710
Zinc 419.5 787
Zirconium 1854 3369

I want to state this at the top so that it's not lost in my post.

Copper Head, I really like the fact you are investigating this and posing these questions. The information and your discovery and thought process, all have value. I want to point out that you are correct in what you have stated, and your thought process, and that I can truly appreciate the fact you are investigating this subject in the way you are. I only hope that what I post adds value and will not be taken the wrong way. I have a lot of respect for people who do what you are doing, and there seem to be so many on this forum. I have learned so much during my time here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Copper Head

Certainly take a copper rad put it to fire the AL is gone leaving the copper behind Now AL melts at 1220 copper at 1983 Fahrenheit
now not to incriminate myself I have seen in a fire pit that does hit 1220 as I have seen AL items disappear but to be later found as a rock formation looking thing and sure enough it's AL , this result can occur when you have a good base of spent ash for the melting AL to settle at . Wile AL does it s disappearing act copper is fine and dandy only in need of a cold douse of water . I have never seen CU melt in a pit but yes you can turn it ashy brittle . Rads from AC's are not an alloy they are separate metals I have to assume AL would melt first as it does in a pit .Yet the fins of AL on a RAD do burn gone easy.I would assume if it did melt much would burn away as a loss
I know of some coins made of AL & CU the concept of recapturing the CU & AL must be what you mentioned
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In time I will learn but I will be as I am a core individual . I get done with minimal scientific terms But I see and understand results and figure ways just the same .
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Admiralty Brass 900 - 940 1650 - 1720
Aluminum 660 1220
Aluminum Alloy 463 - 671 865 - 1240
Aluminum Bronze 600 - 655 1190 - 1215
Antimony 630 1170
Babbitt 249 480
Beryllium 1285 2345
Beryllium Copper 865 - 955 1587 - 1750
Bismuth 271.4 520.5
Brass, Red 1000 1832
Brass, Yellow 930 1710
Cadmium 321 610
Cast Iron, gray 1175 - 1290 2150 - 2360
Chromium 1860 3380
Cobalt 1495 2723
Copper 1084 1983
Cupronickel 1170 - 1240 2140 - 2260
Gold, 24K Pure 1063 1945
Hastelloy C 1320 - 1350 2410 - 2460
Inconel 1390 - 1425 2540 - 2600
Incoloy 1390 - 1425 2540 - 2600
Iridium 2450 4440
Iron, Wrought 1482 - 1593 2700 - 2900
Iron, Gray Cast 1127 - 1204 2060 - 2200
Iron, Ductile 1149 2100
Lead 327.5 621
Magnesium 650 1200
Magnesium Alloy 349 - 649 660 - 1200
Manganese 1244 2271
Manganese bronze 865 - 890 1590 - 1630
Mercury -38.86 -37.95
Molybdenum 2620 4750
Monel 1300 - 1350 2370 - 2460
Nickel 1453 2647
Niobium (Columbium) 2470 4473
Osmium 3025 5477
Palladium 1555 2831
Phosphorus 44 111
Platinum 1770 3220
Plutonium 640 1180
Potassium 63.3 146
Red Brass 990 - 1025 1810 - 1880
Rhenium 3186 5767
Rhodium 1965 3569
Ruthenium 2482 4500
Selenium 217 423
Silicon 1411 2572
Silver, Coin 879 1615
Silver, Pure 961 1761
Silver, Sterling 893 1640
Sodium 97.83 208
Steel, Carbon 1425 - 1540 2600 - 2800
Steel, Stainless 1510 2750
Tantalum 2980 5400
Thorium 1750 3180
Tin 232 449.4
Titanium 1670 3040
Tungsten 3400 6150
Uranium 1132 2070
Vanadium 1900 3450
Yellow Brass 905 - 932 1660 - 1710
Zinc 419.5 787
Zirconium 1854 3369

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Individual metals melt at different temperatures, this is true. If you take two metals and alloy them together, then they can be considered a totally new metal, or the alloy of those two metals, and will melt at a totally different temperature. So if you have an alloy metal, you cannot melt one metal before the other because of the way the metal molecules combine, it also is dependent upon the percentages of those metals.

If you are dealing with two totally different metals that have been fused together, you still get a transfer of one metal to the other, and will not get a pure metal, it still needs to be refined. All you have done is separate as much as possible two metals. However, you have created a situation where it's more difficult to remove what would be considered the pollutant or unwanted metal. For example, when refining karat jewelry silver is added before melting into an anode bar, to increase the amount of silver so that the gold and silver can be more easily separated. It's called inquarting, or in other words making sure 3 out of 4 parts of the alloyed metal are silver, and 1 out of 4 parts is gold. The reason for inquarting is because if you attempting to dissolve the metal in one type of acid, the silver would not dissolve, and it would protect the gold from being attacked by a solution that normally would attack it. As well, the gold would protect the silver from the acid that dissolve silver, but cannot dissolve gold.

If you have two metals that are fused together, and you want to remove the majority of one from the other, you can use the process you are suggesting, it's called "sweating" where you raise the heat to sweat off one metal fused to another. Like I stated above, you will still have pollutant metal, there is a transfer where the two metals meet, but if you are not interested in refining to high purity, but instead either using the metal in another alloy, casting something for a design purpose or art, or you are going to create an different alloy that uses the pollutant metal, this might be a viable option for you.

But my advice, when faced with this type of material would still be to clip out as much of the pure metals as possible, collect the alloyed or fused metals and either sell them to the scrap yard, or collect enough to represent being refined by a refinery that can handle that type of material.

I create precious metal alloys, specifically palladium/silver alloys. Whenever I have material that has a percentage of palladium and silver, instead of trying to separate the two metals, I instead add whichever metal I need to add, in order to make the alloy I am intending to make. This circumvents the need for costly refining, and enables me to create alloyed metals more inexpensively. As well, there might be opportunities for forgoing attempting to separate the two metals at all, but instead alloying them, and adding whatever is required of the pure metals you clipped out to make the specific alloy you intend to make. It might be your local community college, or even small businesses in that area are looking for this exact alloyed metal. Having a network of buyers you can ask if there is any interest has real value at this point. If you can connect with them, and ask this question, you very well could make a better profit margin and save yourself a ton of time, effort, energy, work and cost.

Scott

I've melted copper and aluminum with a home made propane forge. I found that I lost a lot of metal due to oxidation and impurities floating on top (dross). There are ways to combat this using different fluxes but when I took a beautiful 5 lb copper ingot to the scrap yard they weren't interested. One reason is that they couldn't see inside the ingot (and didn't want to test it but cutting or such) and they also couldn't tell if the copper was pure or an alloy of itself and some heavier, cheaper metal. I sold the forge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jonnyjeb

I've melted copper and aluminum with a home made propane forge. I found that I lost a lot of metal due to oxidation and impurities floating on top (dross). There are ways to combat this using different fluxes but when I took a beautiful 5 lb copper ingot to the scrap yard they weren't interested. One reason is that they couldn't see inside the ingot (and didn't want to test it but cutting or such) and they also couldn't tell if the copper was pure or an alloy of itself and some heavier, cheaper metal. I sold the forge.

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Scrap yards often are not equipped to assay metals. They do often possess and use XRF guns or analyzers, however they only check the surface of the metals, and cannot penetrate deeper.

If you take your ingot instead to a refinery, they will generally drill it and then either fire or xrf assay the shavings. If you ever decide to take your ingots to a refiner, and they have precious metals in them, make sure you ask for a referee sample as well in case you don't agree with their assay. The should be drilling the ingot on the top, at both ends and the middle, and the bottom at both ends and the middle and then taking equal amounts from each drilling, mixing them together and then splitting the sample into three using the proper method. One for them to assay, one for you, and one referee sample in case you don't agree.

Scrap yards act as the middle man between yourself, and the refinery or industrial buyer. Whenever possible you should go directly to the refiner. You will make more profit in doing so.

Scott

I see pure copper is pure a remnant removes the ability to call it pure let alone .999 . I could see as you would melt off AL some amount could fuse on as the copper also would start to except some kind of exchange due to it being in a cup of melting AL .
A fire is a fire it cleanses - fire burns off , Fire can separate steel from wood , Yes I see fire pit is not the same.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jonnyjeb

I've melted copper and aluminum with a home made propane forge. I found that I lost a lot of metal due to oxidation and impurities floating on top (dross). There are ways to combat this using different fluxes but when I took a beautiful 5 lb copper ingot to the scrap yard they weren't interested. One reason is that they couldn't see inside the ingot (and didn't want to test it but cutting or such) and they also couldn't tell if the copper was pure or an alloy of itself and some heavier, cheaper metal. I sold the forge.

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What is needed for people who want to do back yard bars , we need to be able to purchase a standardized mold or molds that could not be correct weight to size unless true copper . Take a penny - a true copper penny has a weight not faked out by the zinc penny .
But what I can tell you is this my yard has a hand held device that with the mysterious - of I know NOT can tell what metals are true

Instead of selling to a yard you may want to seek out people who do sculptures or statues for yards and landscaping.
Copper Head- I think I have an idea of where you are or may be close to....the Catskills region has a very large artistic community from what I remember. You may be able to sell metal ingots in that area specifically near Woodstock and Saugerties. Just a thought. Also antique shops may be able to use metals for repair work.

Copperhead, please give credit where credit is due. Use a "link".
Metals - Melting Temperatures

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Originally Posted by Copper Head

What is needed for people who want to do back yard bars , we need to be able to purchase a standardized mold or molds that could not be correct weight to size unless true copper . Take a penny - a true copper penny has a weight not faked out by the zinc penny .
But what I can tell you is this my yard has a hand held device that with the mysterious - of I know NOT can tell what metals are true

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The handheld device is most likely an XRF scanner, similar to this:

Portable XRF Analyzer Product Comparison Chart

These units work great, so long as you are using them for their intended purpose, and not expecting a quantitative analysis. Many require specific programing for the class of metals they are used for, so unless your scrap yard has purchased the programing for all metals, there might be other metals associated when your material is scanned that are showing as unknown. A trick the less reputable yards do is to claim that the XRF scanner/analyzer cannot read the other metals because they are not worth anything, when in fact they know the unknown metals are worth something.

Scott

This was in the bin of the machine shop one morning (where I found the metal Bronco's helmet). It's a old Goss propane furnace/smelter that phone company workers used to melt lead when working on lines. I need to plumb it and test it one of these days.

http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/a...psff925c6d.jpg
http://i929.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps3e407134.jpg

I do sell lead ingots all the time but not to scrap yards. Obviously, a forge is not needed for lead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mick

Copperhead, please give credit where credit is due. Use a "link".
Metals - Melting Temperatures

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If i had been the one who typed out that temp thing from my head I'd be a professor at collage.