Anyone on here refiine?

I've been reading over on GRF for about 2 months now. Most of the time all I leave with is a headache from trying to process all the info in the tiny brain I have. I've just been "lurking" basically, haven't had anything relevant to add besides newbie questions so I just read. Being able to refine myself would be awesome, so ive been curious for awhile.

My question is, have any of you, without prior chemistry knowledge, made the jump from scrapper to refiner??

I would be interested to hear any kind of stories you all may have pertaining to this.

Without prior chemistry knowledge, I think you would be a short lived wannabe refiner. Good thing Gus and Noble aren't around anymore (but I do miss both of them). Have you read Hokes (Ithink that is the name of the book) yet?

Your questions should be addressed at the GRF. A lot of them are scrappers too and would be better answered there.

i learned all i wanted to know about chemistry while shaking a coke

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Originally Posted by Bear

i learned all i wanted to know about chemistry while shaking a coke

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With or without the mentos (sp)? :)

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Originally Posted by BarrenRealms007

With or without the mentos (sp)? :)

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hahaha, M&Ms ; )

Poprocks, the sugar in the straw..pixi stix?..mentos..all fun when dropped into a coke. LOL.

An yea..GRF is where to go for this question. As Barren I think said a lot of folks do both there.

Me? I'll stick to scrapping an whatnot.

Sirscrapalot - Pop pop fizz fizz 'Your grounded!" :(

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Originally Posted by 41haikuwarriors

I've been reading over on GRF for about 2 months now. Most of the time all I leave with is a headache from trying to process all the info in the tiny brain I have. I've just been "lurking" basically, haven't had anything relevant to add besides newbie questions so I just read. Being able to refine myself would be awesome, so ive been curious for awhile.

My question is, have any of you, without prior chemistry knowledge, made the jump from scrapper to refiner??

I would be interested to hear any kind of stories you all may have pertaining to this.

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If you want to refine, you have got your work cut out. You are about to deal with a lot of chemical changes as well as gases that are effective to the human physiology. My advice to you, do extensive research and I do emphasize "extensive" before you start. For example, what are all the apparatus you may need, what gases will you be dealing with in retrospect of the materials you intend to break down, and do you have proper protection and ventilation.

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Originally Posted by TheRecycler

If you want to refine, you have got your work cut out. You are about to deal with a lot of chemical changes as well as gases that are effective to the human physiology. My advice to you, do extensive research and I do emphasize "extensive" before you start. For example, what are all the apparatus you may need, what gases will you be dealing with in retrospect of the materials you intend to break down, and do you have proper protection and ventilation.

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I think the first, and most important question would be considerations pertaining to being able to properly dispose of the chemicals obtained/encountered, and I'd venture to guess most home users answer would certainly be no, if they answered it honestly (unless of course they rent an upstairs apt at a dow chemical plant ; )

I was really only wanting to know if anyone here has taken that step themselves.

It's not something I am anywhere close to doing.

Just a random "questioning"

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Originally Posted by freonjoe

Without prior chemistry knowledge, I think you would be a short lived wannabe refiner. Good thing Gus and Noble aren't around anymore (but I do miss both of them). Have you read Hokes (Ithink that is the name of the book) yet?

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I have been off and on the forum for the last couple months so I'm not up to speed.....what happened to Noble? I thought I would see him replying to some of the recent threads and wondered why he hadn't. He has great insights

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Originally Posted by 41haikuwarriors

I was really only wanting to know if anyone here has taken that step themselves.

It's not something I am anywhere close to doing.

Just a random "questioning"

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Well, you asked and we answered. I think I speak for a large portion of the folks on SMF when I say, you are dealing with a vast amount of wisdom and intelligence; it takes that kind of wits to be an effective scrapper. I hope you got some valuable information.

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Originally Posted by TheRecycler

Well, you asked and we answered. I think I speak for a large portion of the folks on SMF when I say, you are dealing with a vast amount of wisdom and intelligence; it takes that kind of wits to be an effective scrapper. I hope you got some valuable information.

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My question was if any HERE without prior knowledge of chemistry had gone from scrapper to refiner.

I never said I had no knowledge.

It doesn't seem my question is being read correctly.

The answers i have gotten do seem to answer that, none of you refine. So thank you anyway.

I was just bored and wanted a story :(

Once upon a time there were three scrappers. One focused on metal scrap, the other on ewaste, and the third figured he would just refine what the ewaste guy did! So third scrapper went an tried to refine the ewaste, third scrapper ended up in the ground 5 months later from inhaling mixed fumes. First scrapper got tired of metal scrapping and decided to refine also! Oh no you say, another one down! But no! This one...this one the force was strong with. He went an asked a few questions and was told to read the great jedi refining tricks by Hoke(hokes). There is even a free copy floating round there. The ex mmetal scrapper turn refiner went on to make bajillions of dollars and paying off Sirscrapalots bar tab for the next decade.

Short story - Read hoke an you can learn to refine. Thats what I got out of the answes folks gave when they asked over on GRF. Anyone can do it but reading Hoke(s)?! is required in order to do it right.

BUt hey I just keep guard over a traveling cooler, come up with witty tag lines, tell great stories, and I can make pretzels, what do I know. ;)

sirscrapalot - Adding kickass storyteller to his resume

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Originally Posted by 41haikuwarriors

My question was if any HERE without prior knowledge of chemistry had gone from scrapper to refiner.

I never said I had no knowledge.

It doesn't seem my question is being read correctly.

The answers i have gotten do seem to answer that, none of you refine. So thank you anyway.

I was just bored and wanted a story :(

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I was close. I was reading and reading and reading. Hokes, the GRF, etc., etc.

I have no formal chemistry training, but I can pick up most anything if I put my mind to it. Experimental physics, chemistry, etc. No worries here. Nut the further I got into it, the more I realized that in order to do it right, I needed way more equipment than I was able to afford unless I spent some good time bodging it all together.

To really do it all properly requires a good fume hood and being able to dispose of (or properly neutralize) spent chemicals. Trying to make a living at a cheap paying job and trying to make money scrapping led me to this forum where I figured out that I could sell those materials that I am getting for a good profit without all of the headaches of the refining.

so, NO. I did not make the jump, but I went far enough to really understand the process and start accumulating gear, materials, and instructional videos. I am thinking of one day soon putting some of that stuff together and listing it on here for someone who may be interested. I have a couple of laser Steve's videos, some melting pots, lab equipment (beakers and such) as well as some raw starting material that is gold filled to start with.

Bottom line is that anyone really thinking about getting into this has GOT to go into it with a full head and safety in mind. Not just for yourself, but for your entire neighborhood. If you are doing some stuff outside on a day with no breeze, you are messing with your entire neighborhood's health and safety. Those fumes will just hang there.

Wish I could help you more with a story of actually getting into refining. But, yes, someone with a good head and no formal chemistry training can take the time and learn to do it right. It just takes a lot to learn to do it right.

No, I have not crossed that line and I don't think I ever will. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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Originally Posted by 41haikuwarriors

I've been reading over on GRF for about 2 months now. Most of the time all I leave with is a headache from trying to process all the info in the tiny brain I have. I've just been "lurking" basically, haven't had anything relevant to add besides newbie questions so I just read. Being able to refine myself would be awesome, so ive been curious for awhile.

My question is, have any of you, without prior chemistry knowledge, made the jump from scrapper to refiner??

I would be interested to hear any kind of stories you all may have pertaining to this.

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Total jump from scrapper to refiner ...no. Am I starting to do refine certain types of ewaste ...yes!!! I have been reading on GRF since February at least 3-4 hrs per day. I read Hoke twice and its not a book of tricks, but it is the best book to read before deciding to attempt to refine. BTW Hoke was a woman. I have invested in safety equiptment that I need as well as chemicals that can be purchased at your local hardware store. There are many different techniques and processes that can be used to refine different materials. I agree GRF is not an easy forum to work your way around but if you follow the way certain members recommend to get through it, it will make sense to you.
I have no formal training in chemistry except for what I learned in high school. What I know now today as far as refining, I have learned from reading and doing aquintence tests on small batches of materials. Am I ready or do I think I can refine pounds of materials...no. But I do know I can run small amounts safely and have a nice investment for the future.

41haikuwarriors

I think/know that parrothead’s post above is about the most honest factual reply you can get here at SMF. To add a little more detail about refining that parrot left out is you need to know what you have (base metals under plate) and fully understand how to deal with that type of electro plate. You will need LARGE quantities of the same stock, NOT a mix of this and that.
Don’t expect too much help from the folks at GRF other than READ HOLKS over and over and over again. The holks book was written back in 1936 and was for jewelry refiners and NOT computer E-scrap for the most part. BUT Holks will give you a **** good start of what you are in for.

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Originally Posted by 41haikuwarriors

My question was if any HERE without prior knowledge of chemistry had gone from scrapper to refiner.

I never said I had no knowledge.

It doesn't seem my question is being read correctly.

The answers i have gotten do seem to answer that, none of you refine. So thank you anyway.

I was just bored and wanted a story :(

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I think your question was well understood and addressed the way it should have been.

You said you have been on the SMF for a couple of months reading. That is really not even enough time spent there to get even a basic knowledge of what is required to work with the chemicals and the dangers of what can happen.

There are actually quite a few of the users that are on both forums, you just don't recognize them because they go by different user names. How many of them actually pursue both fields actively I do not know.

How many of the close to 4,000 posts on the GRF that I have made have you read? I would venture to say that you have read very few of them or you would not have made the statement that "none of you refine".

I did not have a book or school knowledge before I took up refining. But I did have a working knowledge of most of the chemicals use because I had worked with them in my fields of work for over 35 years including a 4 year period of working at a chemical factory so I knew very well the dangers of what I was working with. Soe of the reactions in refining will kill you, not imediatly but even days after coming in contact with them.

Me personaly I have refined well over 150 Toz's of gold and and 100's of Toz's of silver since I started refining precious metals, 99% from E-scrap.

As far as scrapping goes. I have scrapped metals for over 45 years since I was a little kid. I have no idea how many ton's of copper or aluminum I have sold much less shread but it has been a lot.

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Originally Posted by Bear

hahaha, M&Ms ; )

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I like cheerios in mine. :)

One thing I have learned from here, is to take Barren's word on refining.

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Originally Posted by freonjoe

Without prior chemistry knowledge, I think you would be a short lived wannabe refiner. Good thing Gus and Noble aren't around anymore (but I do miss both of them). Have you read Hokes (Ithink that is the name of the book) yet?

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I have no idea where Noble is. But I can tell you there is a 99% chance that Gus will not be back on this forum or the the GRF. we talk almost on a weekly basis.

Up until your answer Barren, no one gave a straight answer to the OP. And this is not the GRF so no need to slap someones wrist for asking a question that to my knowledge has never been asked HERE before. It was a legit question that was asked of scrappers on a scrap metal forum. Your answer is typical and what turns people off at the grf sometimes. Granted there are a lot of people that go there looking for someone to handfeed them all the answers, and they are weeded out quickly, but there is no reason to bring that attitude here.

Disclaimer ALERT

When I referred to Hokes jedi refining tricks I was attempting to use wit. In case my point was missed, get the book. ITS THE BIBLE for GRF.

It's a fine book, I've read it, and it assured me to stick with what I do now.

More power to those smarter then I am to mess with this stuff!

Sirscrapalot - Nothing like waking up on a lazy Sunday and finding someone dropped off a fridge at your house.

Sirscrapalot - Nothing like waking up on a lazy Sunday and finding someone dropped off a fridge at your house.

Full article at Scrap Metal Forum: http://www.scrapmetalforum.com/day-l...#ixzz2XlJ6hyaw

Was if full of beverages?

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Originally Posted by 41haikuwarriors

I've been reading over on GRF for about 2 months now. Most of the time all I leave with is a headache from trying to process all the info in the tiny brain I have. I've just been "lurking" basically, haven't had anything relevant to add besides newbie questions so I just read. Being able to refine myself would be awesome, so ive been curious for awhile.

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Refining any metals, let alone precious metals, is not something I would lightly suggest anyone just take up, specially without prior knowledge of chemistry or being in an industry that would lend some of the experience you learn there, to refining.

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Originally Posted by 41haikuwarriors

My question is, have any of you, without prior chemistry knowledge, made the jump from scrapper to refiner??

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There are several people whom I have met, and spoken with, one of which has posted on this very thread who have either made the transition, or are making the transition or doing both. If you think about scrapping through to refining you will soon discover that there are many overlapping qualities.

In order to move a metal from waste, to refining you must collect and break it down into a form that can be more easily dealt with, which is the scrapping part, then you must recover the metals you are intending to refine which could be considered the middle step in the process between actual refining and scraping, and then finally you have the refining. So scrapping, to recovering, to refining would be the path if you are looking to specifically make the transition from scrapper to refiner.

It is not easy but it's also not impossible. It will take a lot of reading on your part, and asking the correct questions after you have done your reading first. If you spend any time on GRF you will realize one thing that rings common in all the threads that people who are just starting out run into. Everyone who is an accomplished refiner will tell you that you must read, and read more, and then read some more after that. You are fortunate in that you have this website, and GRF to refer to so that you understand the full scale of scrapping to refining. These two sites combined probably represent the most important repository of information in any library or school anywhere in the world. Knowing this, you should use both just as you are doing here.

I would be interested to hear any kind of stories you all may have pertaining to this.[/QUOTE]

I am not going to write my own story here, but suffice to say I had no formal education in chemistry, I have learned all I have on my own, and much of that proprietary. Although many refiners you encounter will gladly help you along the way, and disclose some of the methods, processes and concepts that will make what you are intending to do far easier, you are still going to have to learn on your own much if not most of what you will apply in order to be successful at refiner precious metals.

If we were sitting down having a cup of coffee and you told me you were thinking about learning how to recover and refine precious metals I think these are the questions I would ask you:

Why? What is your reason for wanting to recover and refine precious metals, is it because it sounds like an interesting hobby, or are you thinking about doing this to make a living? Most people on GRF are doing this as a hobby or a way of making extra money. Very few people do this for a living, it's not easy, it's cut throat and if you are not very careful, you can loose a lot of money before you start seeing any profit. If you are doing this because you need to make money, that would be the wrong reason. Just the equipment alone you will need to purchase to be able to turn this into a viable business will set you back a very tidy sum indeed. If you already have an income and desire to turn refining into a business, I would suggest not borrowing any money but instead to use the bootstrap method, meaning start it as a hobby, and turn the profits back into equipment and slowly evolve your lab in that way. It will take a long time but it's the right way to do it.

Are you willing to take extreme safety measures to insure the safety of not only yourself, but your family, pets, neighbors, and anyone else that might come into contact with the waste products and/or gases that are produced during the refining process, because honestly, they can harm, maim, cripple or outright kill. Unless you are willing to take on the responsibility of the safety measures that should be taken each time you do anything during the refining process, then you shouldn't go any further.

Do you have the space to do this in? That means a clean area not cluttered. Not long ago I spoke with someone who was refining in their garage and figured that they didn't need a fume scrubber because they had their antique car in the garage they could get in and wait for the reaction to finish. This person didn't realize that the gas that evolves during the refining process is also very highly corrosive. Needless to say it ate the metal of the front of the car and caused thousands of dollars worth of damage. You need to have the correct space before you even contemplate doing this.

Are you willing to invest the time, effort and energy not to mention money needed to read and understand, to educate yourself on how to do this properly. This is very important, if you cannot do this and absorb what you read, then you will not even possess the basic understanding required to ask the right questions, or understand the answers given. These processes are not recipes, this is not chemistry by weighing and measuring but instead chemistry by observation. You need to be able to observe what is going on, understand it, and be able to dynamically decide what needs to be done from that point forward. This is the difference between someone who is strictly educated and someone who puts what they have learned to work for them in the proper way. This is not to say you should ignore measurements, or understanding chemistry on that level, but it is very important you are able to conduct chemistry by observation as well.

If this thread turns out interesting, and there are some good questions that evolve, I would be willing to spend more time on it. I appreciate being missed, I didn't realize I would be. I am still here, I am not going anywhere, I just have not had a lot of time to devote to writing as much as I have in the past. My business is starting to evolve and I'm still putting together my building properly so I can do what I need to do on a larger scale.

Scott

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Originally Posted by Sirscrapalot

Sirscrapalot - Nothing like waking up on a lazy Sunday and finding someone dropped off a fridge at your house.

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Was it already properly evacuated?
LOL

I'm on both forums. From each of them I've learned that I've found the absolute best possible places on the internet to learn how do both.

I work full-time, so in my spare time I'm busy scrapping electronics with intent to recover and refine the precious metals they contain. I have invested some money in glassware, equipment, tools, and some simple chemicals to recover the low-hanging fruit (gold fingers). I don't have a fume hood (yet), so I haven't refined my recovered foils. I'm in no rush, the gold isn't going anywhere. As I have money to spare I'm outfitting my home-lab with the things that I'll need to go after the harder to recover precious metals safely. For now I'm stockpiling all precious metal-bearing materials, and maximizing my returns on base metals thanks to tips I learn here.:)

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Originally Posted by BRASSCATCHER

Sirscrapalot - Nothing like waking up on a lazy Sunday and finding someone dropped off a fridge at your house.

Full article at Scrap Metal Forum: http://www.scrapmetalforum.com/day-l...#ixzz2XlJ6hyaw

Was if full of beverages?

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Ha! I wish BC..I wish.

Sirscrapalot - Batteries not included.

I also do both! But i am no home refiner. There is a refining business in my family and it is easier to bring it there where I have the lab, all safety equip with hoods and scrubbers and a way to deal with the waste material and lab techs who know their way around every type of material. The only downside to the way i'm doing it is they don't want to deal with a pound or two so i have to bring at least 50lbs of material down and it takes a while to accumulate on the other hand the return is much nicer :)

I just downloaded Hokes PDF file, Inevitably when I learn I will probably try but I might be years from it . I will not do it the same way I learned scrap (as I went along) I want to know the procedures and be able to have a intelligent conversation about how it is done .Till that day I keep collecting stock (cpu boards mem) I cash in my TV boards all the time for Copper bearing - I have wondered if there was any precious metals on TV boards worth reclaiming small level as I run about 400 pound conservatively of TV boards to the yard = $60 monthly
If there was a way to just get the solder off boards and then put them to ingots I would be interested .As a scrapper who picks up weight all the time I am sure there is some jucy silver lead solder on them boards
When I chop up the boards to fill a 10 gallon pail It's hevy I figure thats not from the plastic or tid bits of copper , it's solder.
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I would be appreciative of a shout, if TV boards have precious metal-bearing material that I keep tossing away at .15 LB.

The only thing that may be worth saving off those boards are any ic chips. Pull one off and take a chisel and hit it on the seam on the side and see whats in side. Other than that pull off what you normally do and get your .15# for the boards.

On the subject of TV boards - AL comes off and certain easy to retrieve juicy copper items . The ic chips i figure they were copper as i once did look once .
What i always wonder about are the AL heat sinks , I figure have they have a ic chip also,
they might have a touch of value as the yards never complain about it being dirty AL
Like if I bring in AL and it had the same size piece of plastic on it or a few screws it is dirty AL . Yet the AL heat sinks from tv's with a large in your face chip they always take

What I have learned from yards there is always a rhyme or reason for there actions. They chisel me down $6 on a load of short cause some thing was over 5 foot while the rest is perfect . The AL heat sinks with chips they want ,it's clear to me.

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Originally Posted by BRASSCATCHER

The only thing that may be worth saving off those boards are any ic chips. Pull one off and take a chisel and hit it on the seam on the side and see whats in side. Other than that pull off what you normally do and get your .15# for the boards.

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I have spent time on grf..lurking of course

I can dispose of waste free since I waste treat for a job..but I am still weary...

There is much to take into consideration..

How much are you willing to lose on ur 1st try???.

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I would be appreciative of a shout, if TV boards have precious metal-bearing material that I keep tossing away at .15 LB.

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I posted this in the room but you did ask a valid question, I probably have a pill bottle full about now.
I usually pull alum. heat sinks, transformers, chokes-coils, larger IC's, and any other larger copper/brass items.

http://www.scrapmetalforum.com/priva...scrapping.html

almost all the little push buttons have a gold colored disk inside them, you've gotta pop the top part with the button off, and it's underneath

As Noble stated, there are three main steps. Collecting, concentrating, then refining. I got in when the collecting was easy. Now I continue to concentrate that material down into smaller value dense concentrates, selling off the bulkier garbage. Shipping is expensive for me so the more value density the better. Then farther in the future I will be able to determine if refining any of the concentrates has a reasonable risk/reward probablity. This is a long term project. It also coincides with gold prospecting that I am exploring with. Same general concept of collecting the richest material, concentrating it to a good value density, then extrating and refining. I started collecting ewaste because it had a greater value density than the dirt I was processing, but I am still advancing both agendas. I think it is best to not play all of ones cards at once, while exporing behind all of the closed doors (refined value of ewaste). If it's not an adventure, I don't have time.