OPINION: there is no foundation for the drop in Gold prices.

First let me say I am no expert, I can't afford to be but, I have friends who I consider to be and, they are not preppers or survivalists.

I study and study a lot things that interest me and like to get to the bottom of riddles.

i have found only three reasons given for the drop in prices.

1. the economy is improving. Is that true or is it just media propaganda. Is the economy improving for you or your friends and neighbors as a group. some will always do better and some will do worse it is a fact of an open trade policy. in order for an increase in the economy as a whole the whole economy must rise. I don' see people rushing to new jobs or returning to old ones. I dont see average business rushing out to buy new equipment or hiiring mass numbers of employees. how about you?

2, the dollar is stronger. Against what and who? Europe? they are already in the tank except for Germany and a few small countries with small economies like Switzerland. Look at their gdp per person against ours (be sitting down when you do).

3. less gold is being bought for production. because of the economic slow down. which is it an economic slow down or an economic improvement ? It can't be both ways accept, of course , in the public news medium. they can have it any way they want it seems or should I say the way the government information office wants it.

THE CASE FOR THE RISE IN GOLD PRICES.

1. China, India and Russia, three of the largest gold producers no longer sell most of their production of precious metals, they hoard them.

2. mining stocks in the U.S. are not rising. Production world wide is down. Big money stopped buying mining shares.

3. Germany has ordered 60 tons of gold stored here to be shipped back to Germany.

4. Several countries now buy oil with Gold not petrol ( U.S.) dollars.

5, China is buying 4000 tons of gold through straw purchase. We supposedly have 8000 tons. I would like to see an inventory.

just my .02

I think it's a fairly well known fact that gold is being artificially deflated, as well as silver. Imagine this, silver is used at a 1:1 ratio in industry, to gold, there is less silver in the world than there is gold, over 40% of the silver that is used in industry, comes from recycle sources, and yet silver is less than $30 USD per ounce?

All we have to do is to look to those people who have the largest investments in gold, those are the only people who could realistically manipulate and devalue gold. Then watch when they purchase gold, so the price is deflated, gold is purchased in large quantities which drives the price up, then it's devalued again.

All it would take is for the US to sell our gold stocks on the European market, the gold would never have to leave Fort Knox. The US Government could sell and buy as required to artificially deflate or inflate gold prices at will, which in turn affects the entire worlds economy.

I think this is more about manipulating all currency of the world. Gold might not be what backs currency, but it is certainly what puts people's faith in our economy. Gold has always been a standard, regardless if paper money is backed by it or not.

Lately, I have been purchasing as much as possible by trading silver and gold for goods and services. I get a far better price than if I spent cash, and the people I make payment to seem much happier. If more people would exchange precious metals for goods and services then what those precious metals are worth would fall back under the control of a free market, instead of being manipulated by governments, banking institutions and the ultra 1% rich.

Scott

100% agreed.

1. the economy is improving.

No its not, there is no improvement in building, unemployment staying level and that means it is increasing because people are disappearing from the system that have depleted their unemployment new people coming in to fill the slots, retail stores are closing far more locations than are being built, and government is cutting jobs. All signs point toward higher unemployment and worse retail sales later in the year.

2, the dollar is stronger. Against what and who? Europe? they are already in the tank except for Germany and a few small countries with small economies like Switzerland. Look at their gdp per person against ours (be sitting down when you do).

no, the dollar is weaker, it only looks stronger because other countries are devaluing there currencies, which is exactly what we should be doing, which in turn by inflating our currency would make us more competitive in the world economy might bring back some jobs and would definitely push up metals prices. until our government wakes up and realizes this nothing will change. You cant inflate currency when interest rates are at zero doing so would cause hyperinflation, so there definitely in a gridlock right now.

3. less gold is being bought for production. because of the economic slow down. which is it an economic slow down or an economic improvement ? It can't be both ways accept, of course , in the public news medium. they can have it any way they want it seems or should I say the way the government information office wants it.

I agree with that statement 100%.


The main thing i want to point out is that everyone thinks unemployment staying level is a good sign. Actually its a highly negative indicator. Remember that people who have depleted there funds and run out of extensions are getting dropped from the system. And because the bad job market has been going on so long now people are dropping out at higher rates than when the recession started. I think actual unemployment is 20% and rapidly increasing. Another year or two at the rate were going and a depression is inevitable. I think we need to start inflating our currency now before its too late. China holds 30% of our debt, let them take the hit.

The so called recovery we've been hearing about for the last year or so is 100% fake.

Gold has been on basically a 12 year bull run. What goes up must come down. The stock market has gained seven percent this year while gold has dropped six percent. Investors are taking there money out of gold and funneling it back into the stock market. Last year the price of gold was propped up by what seemed like a never ending soap opera with congress, debt limit, greece, The euro collapsing, Etc. It has been relatively calm this year as far as crisis that affect the US economy and gold as a safe haven. Just an opinion though.

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Originally Posted by PistoneScrapProcessing

Gold has been on basically a 12 year bull run. What goes up must come down. The stock market has gained seven percent this year while gold has dropped six percent. Investors are taking there money out of gold and funneling it back into the stock market. Last year the price of gold was propped up by what seemed like a never ending soap opera with congress, debt limit, greece, The euro collapsing, Etc. It has been relatively calm this year as far as crisis that affect the US economy and gold as a safe haven. Just an opinion though.

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As more people become more affluent and demand those goods we have been enjoying in the western world for so long, gold is going to become more and more in demand.

There is more gold used every year than the year prior

All those places that buy gold jewelry, do you think they are making more gold jewelry? No, the gold is being melted, refined, and sent to China to keep the machine of industry rolling

Our government is actually encouraging this because without gold, those items we consume that are made in China, will be in short supply. We are a nation of consumers, not builders, if we don't have things to consume with our revolving credit, we don't have an economy. Although it's all fake and based on oil rather than gold, it's still an economy, fragile as it is.

More gold is recycled and used in industry every year, than the year prior.

More gold is hoarded every year than the year prior

We have already hit peak gold, meaning there is less gold being pulled out of the ground every year, than what is demanded by industry

Knowing these things as fact, how can it be that gold ever looses any value on the marketplace. It's because it's on the marketplace, and being controlled by people who are able to control it. It's blatant and obvious market manipulation. It's done for many many reasons, and done so with intent and purpose. If the market wasn't manipulated, gold would become far too expensive, electronics would rise in price way past what most middle class consumers would be able to afford, industry, consumerism, everything would come to a screeching halt.

Gold is being manipulated, this is not a natural function of the marketplace.

Scott

If all this is true (and i agree it is), then shouldnt we, as "scrappers", be saving as much of the precious metal content as possible? Obviously most typical guys on here have to flip over a big % to cover our expense in obtaining it, but what would you recommend the average Joe do? I'm just opening this up for conversation, as I have my own ideas, but wanted to hear from guys with more experience with precious metals like Scott and others.

It could be simple things like squirrelling away a few gold fingers here and there, or saving copper from heat sinks, etc. For those guys that dont have access to ingots, what would you recommend? I think a lot of guys could benefit from simple ideas seeing as we have access to more of this stuff than the average person.

Gold is an investment when nothing else is getting decent returns, it has some small use in industry, and some people like to wear it. There is no real value in hoarding it during good time or stable times. My take on it is that it will not drop to $350 ever again, but things have stableized into the mess we have now and the rich might have found other things to invest in. There will be price fluctuations as people dump some of their gold, but I just can't see the prices rising forever as anyone who wanted to be in gold IS already. People got into gold when the banks were having trouble and were folding, the way the system is now all the medium sized banks have been purchased by the big ones (which are too big to fail). No charges have been braught to the banks who did major illegal activity so the rich know they have no worries on major instability there.

Most of the activity the banks did was forced upon them by the Fed government, through a program developed in the Carter administration, put into action during the Clinton regime, and NOT stopped during the Bush years.

It's taken me awhile to get where I am at currently, not everyone can do things the way I am doing them. All I can do is express what I am doing and try to help others do the same.

I have a few rules I try really hard to live by, I feel it's my responsibility as a refiner and an American to conduct myself in a certain way.

First, as often as I can, I trade refined gold or silver or other precious metals, for material to refine. In doing so, I am helping people who scrap and recycle for a living increase their own stability. The more precious metals they retain, the more money they make off their hard work and labor. I am not just paying for goods, I am trading an investment for goods.

I try to only sell to people who are either hoarding or creating something useful, and doing so here in the United States. When e-waste is sold to China or India, we are really giving away our precious metals as a country, as a society. And when we do so for pennies on the dollar, it seems like incredible stupidity to me.

I retain as much precious metals as is possible, and only sell specific amounts when my margin is more than a specific percentage. In doing so I am buffering against the dollar loosing value while my investment is in USD form.

I only exchange as much precious metals for USD as I need, at any given time my business bank account only barely has enough funds to pay my current bills, no more than that. This also helps on taxes. Because precious metals are considered a commodity, and because I turn precious metals into useful products, I am not paying any capital gains until they are actually sold, and in keeping what I have in the bank at only what I need I save a lot of money this way.

If you are a scrapper who sells material to refiners, ask them to pay you in precious metals instead of cash, unless you need the cash to pay your bills. It lowers what the government considers income, but it increases your net worth. Gold has always gone up in value, even when it goes down, it goes back up. For example, if I were to have kept a $20 dollar gold piece in 1933, today, just in the weigh of gold it would be worth right around $1500 dollars. That seems like a no brainer to me. The money you invest in precious metals today will do nothing but increase in value.

I wouldn't keep gold bearing material laying around, I would exchange it for precious metals in shot form, not bar form. The reason being is that you can always easily trade bits of gold, but it's more difficult to trade gold coins or bars worth thousands of dollars. You can also split the pieces of gold up between several different hiding places or locations. If you are a prepper you will understand my meaning.

I will never understand in my wildest imagination how anyone could possibly think that paper money is worth more than gold, or why anyone would want to keep paper money instead of gold. For me, it's a no brainer. Gold that I keep on hand is worth far more than paper or electronic funds kept in a bank. It's real, it has far more uses than paper money or electronic funds, it can be easily exchanged, everyone all over the world recognizes it for it's value, and the argument goes on and on.

Retain as much of the beautiful stuff as you can, and play your gold the same way our government does, leverage against it for paper money when required to do so, but keep control of as much of it as possible.

Scott

when gold, palladium and platinum all drop $40 in 1 day i call that a pull back, i dont see any weakness in gold other than declining demand

The market cant break thru and stay above 14,000. I believe we are in eminent danger of a market crash. I dont think this is a correction, weve tried to break thru 14,000 and cant stay above it. I think were getting ready to see the triple top in action.

http://www.tradersdaytrading.com/tri...p-pattern.html

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Originally Posted by shendog

Most of the activity the banks did was forced upon them by the Fed government, through a program developed in the Carter administration, put into action during the Clinton regime, and NOT stopped during the Bush years.

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Most of the activity large banks do are derivatives, not loans. Basically they are bets on companies and commodities, some people call them insurance but they are backed by nothing while insurance is backed by a cash reserve to cover those policies. We are talking hundreds of trillions of dollars here backed by NOTHING.

About 10%-12% of the gold produced every year goes directly into industry, that is nothing to shake a stick at.

It's a common known fact that central banks all over the world, since 2002, have been selling huge quantities of gold. If not for this, the demand would have exceeded the supply and we would have seen a huge inflation in the price of gold. But this action cannot be sustained forever, and central banks cannot pay more for gold than what they sold it for, to replenish their stocks. Think of their gold supply as a buffer, similar like oil reserves, this is why they are often called "gold reserves". They are reserved, and when needed by industry sold, and when possible replenished.

If gold were to double in price for example, or quadruple, imagine how much a cell phone would sell for, or a flat screen TV, or a computer. This would seriously discourage people from purchasing these products, which would cause the economy, that is dependent on continual excessive spending, to collapse. Not to mention the number of jobs that would be lost in the retail industry, and the backlash later on the manufacturing industry. It would cause a chain reaction that would end up being a runaway event. The price of gold is manipulated specifically for these reasons, as well as profit taking by those entities and people who have control over enough gold to manipulate the prices effectively.

Many of the worlds central banks do not disclose how much gold they sell, or when they do. But here is an example of a few that have, you can see my meaning.



Germany - sold 12 tonnes of gold in 2001, as commemorative gold coins. [Source - World Gold Council]

Holland declared a policy of selling 300 tonnes over 5 years from 1999. The Dutch do not advertise their sales in the market as they happen. They have sold 100 tonnes in year 1. 27 tonnes in year 2. 9 tonnes in year 3, and 33 tonnes in year 4 (so far). [Source - World Gold Council]

Portugal sold 15 tonnes in December 2002 and 30 tonnes in February 2003, apparently as a result of options taken out in 1997/8. [Source - World Gold Council]

Switzerland plans to sell 1300 tonnes. They have sold annual amounts of 120, 220 and 283 tonnes, project a further 283 tonnes in 2003 and will cease selling after 2004. [Source - World Gold Council]

The UK has sold 395 tonnes in a public auction programme which finished in March 2002.[Source - World Gold Council]

On average, from 1997 to 2002 industry worldwide used about 397 tonnes of gold, per year. You could say that if these central banks did not sell the quantity of gold they did to meet the worldwide demand, it would certainly have hurt industry.

Also keep in mind, gold traded on the international market falls under the same banking rules that loaning money does. For example, banks only have to keep 10% of the total funds they loan on deposit. Same goes for gold, they "loan" the gold out and only have to retain 10% of deposit. That means for every one ton of gold that is kept on deposit there is another 9 tonnes of gold that is invented, that doesn't really exist, that is loaned, and the sold on the market as investment.

Scott

A strong dollar is gonna kill us on exports. We cant compete with the rest of the world. By weakening the dollar we can be back on par. S&P and Moodys are chomping at the bit to downgrade US debt again.

Industrial gold is recycled, quite a bit of gold held in homes was resold during the price increases of the last 5 years (few people in the US wear gold chains anymore). Plus there is plenty of mining going on now that it is worth digging. There is more gold around now then there ever was in history.

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Originally Posted by unknownk

There is more gold around now then there ever was in history.

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That's an easy statement to back up, of course there is more gold now than ever before, there is more gold mined every year that adds to what has already been mined. But there are also far more, per capita, people now than ever before. And all wanting to have gold in some form.

I don't think I am getting my point across at all. Let me try again.

If we were to, just for the sake of arguing, remove recycled gold, and gold in central banks out of the equation, there is not enough gold being mined every year to supply the demand. That means we are far past "peak gold". People have to be discouraged from purchasing gold, and this is done just like it is with oil, by raising the prices. The oil companies don't raise gas prices because they are trying to squeeze as much profit as they can, the raise prices to discourage the use of gasoline because we are way past the point of being able to pump enough oil out of the ground at a fast enough rate to supply the worldwide demand. That's why during the summer you find high gas prices, when people drive for vacation, and during the winter lower, to encourage the purchase of gas because people travel less. Gold fluctuates for different reasons but similar ways, although it's a very delicate balancing act, it cannot be raised too much because it would through the retail products into a tailspin, it cannot be deflated too much because smart people would try to purchase huge quantities of real gold to hoard.

The unique thing about gold is that there has never been enough to supply the worldwide demand. Prices will always rise because there are always more people who wish to purchase gold, than there is gold. And the worldwide population keeps increasing. It's not really that difficult to understand.

On, and not all industrial or gold that goes into retail products is recycled. It's currently estimated by different sources to be only about 17%-22% recycled. Those are pretty fair numbers. Considering that industry uses more and more gold, and other precious metals every year than the year prior, it's obvious that industry is only supplied in a small part, by recycled gold.

Scott

What the heck are you talking about? Nobody wanted gold before the economy took a dump, gold was barely over $300 for years. People who hoarded during the last peak of $800 HAVE NEVER MADE THEIR MONEY BACK. You sound like the people saying home prices will always go up, guess what they won't.

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Originally Posted by unknownk

What the heck are you talking about? Nobody wanted gold before the economy took a dump, gold was barely over $300 for years. People who hoarded during the last peak of $800 HAVE NEVER MADE THEIR MONEY BACK. You sound like the people saying home prices will always go up, guess what they won't.

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When the US Government made it illegal to hoard gold, gold prices stayed stable at $30 per ounce for decades. During that time the only legal way you could own gold was to own legitimate collectors coins, or jewelry or other things of an artistic nature.

Gold has inspired millions of people to migrate thousands of miles in order to just simply have the chance to collect or mine it.

It has been the cause, and rise of more civilizations than any other single reason

It has been used as decoration for thousands of years

It is one of the only metals that can be found in it's crystal form, in nuggets, etc

It has been used as currency for thousands of years

I could go on and on, I am sure the people posting on this thread already realize these things. Gold prices always go up. Gold is always in demand, there is always more demand than supply thus there is an entire industry built around recycling gold.

When gold goes down in price, there is one constant that has always rang true, gold will eventually go back up in price again. All you have to do, to realize this fact, is to look at the history of gold and what it's sold for in the past.

I'm not sure what currency you are claiming that people who purchased gold at $800 have never made their money back:

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people who hoarded during the last peak of $800 HAVE NEVER MADE THEIR MONEY BACK

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But if ANYONE purchased gold at $800 USD per ounce they have almost doubled their money at today's current spot prices, in case you are not up to date, gold is currently at $1576.50 USD per ounce, right now. Matter of fact if you have any gold you purchased at $800 USD per ounce that is 99.95 pure, or know anyone that does, and they cannot find anyone to purchase it so that they make a profit, I would gladly pay $900 USD per ounce right now, without any hesitation at all. I don't understand the point you are attempting to make, but it seems that you don't have your figures straight. We are talking about gold, and not some other metal, the bright gold colored shiny stuff that jewelry is made of? The same thing that the second most populated country in the world "India" uses as a gift from groom to bride when being married? The same as in the Middle East? The same thing that has been used to back currency for thousands of years? The same stuff used to create the treasures of Tutankhamun?

I'm confused, how can you relate the market prices of gold, to that of real estate? Can you provide links to whatever reading material you have been basing your information on? Is there any evidence as to any of what you have stated being factual? More information would be appreciated, and frankly, if you cannot supply any information to back up your statement, I would appreciate it if you would apologize and retract it. If you can prove me wrong I will be more than happy to do the same.

Scott

platinum took the biggest hit, but i still dont think its time to buy, metals still have quite a ways to fall before id feel good about buying

The $800 last peak was in 1980, $800 of 1980 dollars would be worth: $2,228.41 in 2012 so they are still under water whgich was my point.

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Originally Posted by unknownk

The $800 last peak was in 1980, $800 of 1980 dollars would be worth: $2,228.41 in 2012 so they are still under water whgich was my point.

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I gotcha. You're using the value of the gold versus inflation approach.

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Originally Posted by unknownk

The $800 last peak was in 1980, $800 of 1980 dollars would be worth: $2,228.41 in 2012 so they are still under water whgich was my point.

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People who bought at $800 per ounce are not under water, gold is worth almost $1600 per ounce today, almost double the profit. If you held onto your $800 dollars from 1980 you would have, lets see... Let me break out my calculator and figure this out, uhmmm.. Oh yeah, you would have $800 dollars. If you bought an ounce of gold in 1980 then sold it today, you would have almost $1600.

How would someone be able to turn their $800 1980 dollars into $2,228.41 in today's dollars? You have to invest in something, you could try playing the bank interest, but even that is cutting it close. This is exactly what this thread is all about, the devaluation of gold. There is no reason for gold to be devalued, yet it is. There is no basis, no foundation, no logical reason, yet it is being devalued and you just proved the point.

If we are talking about safe, smart investments, gold has always been a safe investment. At no time has buying gold ever been a wrong decision. And sooner or later, the entities who are manipulating gold prices are going to have to allow it to run for awhile just to relieve the pressure. The precious metals market is totally artificial. All you have to do is read a little bit, do some investigation, look at which central banks and entities are selling gold and ask yourself WHY, and you can figure it out all on your own. I am not asking anyone to just take my word for it, don't, look up the information yourself, please, and correct me if you find I am wrong, I would like to be wrong about this, I really would.

I'll tell you one more thing, this is what I tell the customers I purchase material to process from and trade gold and silver in payment. They are buying gold at a fraction of the real value because it's in a form that is considered waste or recyclable goods. This means they are paying far less than market value for their precious metals. Think about this for just a minute. A smart scrapper can secure their future with confidence if they put their hard work, to work for them, here is an example.

Lets take someone I buy silver scrap from as an example. He pays about 25% of the real value of the silver scrap he obtains, he sells it to me for 50% of it's real value. I pay him in gold or silver. Not only did he just double his money, but over time, so long as he holds onto that metal, that same metal becomes worth more and more. The longer they sit on it, the more money they make.

Here is a 36 year historical chart on gold prices:

http://goldprice.org/gold-price-hist...ear_gold_price

It shows your spike in 1980, but do you see the current trend. And that trend exists even in the presence of market manipulation. The reason for this trend is that there is far more demand than there is gold. Eventually gold will even outstrip your 1980 benchmark on inflation, it has to, it's been catching up all these years and really pouring on the heat recently regardless of market manipulation.

I wouldn't buy gold or silver because I can recover and refine it. If I couldn't, then I might be a lot more careful in considering when to buy, but I don't need to be. If I were a scrapper I wouldn't buy gold or silver either, I would buy, with cash, gold or silver scrap and then sell it for gold or silver shot, in this way I can choose how much profit I want to make by selling it when it hits that amount, or I could hold onto it for longer and only sell as needed. This is how you beat the precious metals game, this is the way to secure your future. It's not difficult to do and if you are obtaining your material for 25%-50% of it's real value in precious metals, you can still make a decent profit, and pass on the opportunity to a refiner to make some profit as well.

Scott

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Originally Posted by NobleMetalWorks

People who bought at $800 per ounce are not under water, gold is worth almost $1600 per ounce today, almost double the profit. If you held onto your $800 dollars from 1980 you would have, lets see... Let me break out my calculator and figure this out, uhmmm.. Oh yeah, you would have $800 dollars. If you bought an ounce of gold in 1980 then sold it today, you would have almost $1600.

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Perhaps what unknownk was referring to was the PURCHASING POWER of those 800 dollars. In 1980, $800 would buy FAR more than $1600 would buy today.

Plus, assuming you could manage a measly 2.2% APR, which I think any reasonable savings account would've averaged, you would, in fact, have $1600 now from your original $800 saved in 1980.

In fact, a 6-month CD would've trounced gold's return since that peak day on 21JAN80. Here's a month by month chart of 6 month CD rates since January of 1980:

Data from CD Interest Rate Chart

http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/5060/cdret.jpg

So... an unfortunate soul who bought gold at $850/oz on Monday, 21JAN80, versus a conservative saver who bought 6-month CDs with those same 850 bucks and reinvested their interest..... which would you rather be?

Better yet, the S&P500 closed at 112.10 on 21JAN80. It closed at 1502.42 yesterday. I don't think there was such a thing as SPDRs in 1980, but a broad investment in S&P500 companies would have turned $800 into $10,722.

As always, past performance is not indicative of future returns, yadda-yadda-yadda... and these figures are for an extreme circumstance, but the numbers say gold has not historically been a wise investment long term.

See somebody gets it. Gold has never been a good long term investment because it doesn't go up very often and generally only when the world takes a dump. it is more of a place to dump cash because there are no other sound investments at the moment.

Nobody was talking about gold as an investment during the 1990's, it went nowhere for a decade while the stock market was going nuts. Buying gold now is like dumping your stocks the moment they hit rock bottom and are going to go back up.

Trends mean nothing long term. Go look at housing price trends and you would think they would go up forever until they crashed hard. Microsoft stock trended up for over a decade and then ran out of gas, Apple stock took a dump for a decade and now is worth a mint compared to 2000. Things change, don't drink the cool-aide and you won't get burned. Pay off debt, live under your means and things will work out.

The nosedive continues...

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Originally Posted by auminer

So... an unfortunate soul who bought gold at $850/oz on Monday, 21JAN80, versus a conservative saver who bought 6-month CDs with those same 850 bucks and reinvested their interest..... which would you rather be?

Better yet, the S&P500 closed at 112.10 on 21JAN80. It closed at 1502.42 yesterday. I don't think there was such a thing as SPDRs in 1980, but a broad investment in S&P500 companies would have turned $800 into $10,722.

As always, past performance is not indicative of future returns, yadda-yadda-yadda... and these figures are for an extreme circumstance, but the numbers say gold has not historically been a wise investment long term.

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No matter what investment I put up as being a good solid investment, someone else could come along and present something better. We could even talk about real estate in other countries that has made leaps and bounds against the performance of real estate in western countries.

I purchased AOL stock way back in 91 I think it was, when it went public. I sold right away, if I held onto it I could have made $100k off every $1k I invested. But what is it worth today?

Sure I could have invested in something that would have performed well, or I could have invested in something that performed poorly, or still something else that had it's up and downs and be down right now. My point in saying gold is never a bad investment is that it has always increased in value. It cannot be a bad investment, and besides being a good investment, you can actually exchange it for goods and services, I do all the time, whenever possible myself.

I still stand by what I said, precious metals are still the best investment, maybe not so far as maximum profit is concerned, by more so in terms about what might be in the best interest if everything goes to crap. Not only are precious metals a good solid long term investment, but it's protection against the total devaluation of paper money.

Then add to these facts how I obtain the precious metals I hoard, through recycling e-waste/i-waste at or around 25%-50% of it's real value, and the fact I purchase much of this by trading precious metals for recyclable goods, I pass on this opportunity to others who then can protect their own futures if they so choose. Or wait until the precious metals become worth more than their exchanged value, and make more profit in doing so.


Scott

The government does not like precious metals because the cant manipulate the value, and now they are losing the ability to manipulate dollars due to the global economy, hence the incoming nosedive of the us economy triggering massive inflation which will make metals prices skyrocket, if the value of the dollar gets cut in half it will take twice as much to buy one ounce of gold. Right now is a good time to buy in my opinion, i think holding is good right now if youve already positioned. I would buy palladium and platinum over gold though due to industrial demand.

you do realise it is all an illusion?

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Originally Posted by rbrooks715

you do realise it is all an illusion?

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No I don't actually, quite possibly because I have no idea of what exactly you're referring to. Would you care to explain? (of course you would, that's why you phrased your answer as you did)

I am still seeing huge government and retail cutbacks this year leading to massive unemployment. Which will lead to inflation and metals prices rising in the long run.

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Originally Posted by zito

No I don't actually, quite possibly because I have no idea of what exactly you're referring to. Would you care to explain? (of course you would, that's why you phrased your answer as you did)

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noun
1.
something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality.
2.
the state or condition of being deceived; misapprehension.
3.
an instance of being deceived.
4.
Psychology . a perception, as of visual stimuli (optical illusion) that represents what is perceived in a way different from the way it is in reality.

does that help?

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Originally Posted by unknownk

What the heck are you talking about? Nobody wanted gold before the economy took a dump, gold was barely over $300 for years. People who hoarded during the last peak of $800 HAVE NEVER MADE THEIR MONEY BACK. You sound like the people saying home prices will always go up, guess what they won't.

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hoarding and investing are not the same.

you can make the same analogy about those who hoarded 35 gold as those who hoarded 800 gold.

for those who have invested in a good long term gold strategy, they have done quite well.

people who invested in 300 gold are the other side of your analysis.

what about those who buy their gold for less than market value. would you say that is a good investment?

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Originally Posted by rbrooks715

noun
1.
something that deceives by producing a false or misleading impression of reality.
2.
the state or condition of being deceived; misapprehension.
3.
an instance of being deceived.
4.
Psychology . a perception, as of visual stimuli (optical illusion) that represents what is perceived in a way different from the way it is in reality.

does that help?

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If I didn't already know what illusion meant, I could google up a dictionary definition of it quite well all on my own, thanks.

the only illusion in play is how the government is running the country on fluff, the fundamentals for a good economy do not exist, its simply a matter of time at this point untill the game ends.....

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Originally Posted by jghilino

the only illusion in play is how the government is running the country on fluff, the fundamentals for a good economy do not exist, its simply a matter of time at this point untill the game ends.....

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Agreed

Good thread, Gold is a complex topic since it has so many players with divergent interests. Since it is not a "pure" industrial metal..of course it is heavily manipulated in terms of value and supply. I like the easy access of "junk gold" in e-scrap, that seems like a wonderful bet for the future (much like silver in coinage,that has paid off great for early hoarders). If the break neck growth in India/China stays linked 100plus/barrel oil copper will be metal of the day..pure market driven commodity that will be very difficult to corner or suppress. Amazing times...this fake "recovery" is outta cash,where is the money going to run too?

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Originally Posted by rbrooks715

what about those who buy their gold for less than market value. would you say that is a good investment?

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That depends. A buyer pays spot plus a markup for a gold coin (say a US $50), when you go to sell (same day, same dealer) they pay you less then spot for the coin. That spread is how dealers make their money, the move volitile the market the less of the spot price they pay you or they don't bother (so they don't get stuck with a loss). This only works for the dealer because they have clients looking for that gold all the time. Unless you as an invester knows somebody who is paying spot + premium then you can't make money unless gold goes way up even if you pay less then spot (and that is pretty much over now).

The way this economy works is that the government loans money to banks at no interest and those banks invest that money in gov bonds (nobody else would buy the trillions the gov needs), those same banks invested in gold and stock, which is why they made some good profits the last few years. People with jobs still stick money into 401k's which wallstreet pretty much pockets. Stocks are pretty much worthless without the constant stream of 401K money and from banks buying up stock with free money. Sooner or later the whole system will collapse and so will the value of everything except food and fuel.

the money is not controlled by the government it is controlled by the FED. Every president that tried or even thought of printing money or taking control of it has been assassinated.

The government wants money. QE 1,2,3,4, the Treasury sec calls the FED and orders 40 billion the FED says ok. and the treasury prints it. trading it for U.S. security's plus 6% interest. There is no backing of this loan except for you and me and what we produce. The government produces nothing. So it is entirely Debt to you and me 40 billion plus 6% intrust. That debt has now been streached way past you and me to our children and grand children. the government is now spending their money and futures.

Here is a scary fact.

There isn't currently, enough printed money to pay just the interest on the amount of money the Federal Government has borrowed from the Federal Reserve. People tend to thing that "The Fed" means it's the federal government, and that's just simply not the fact. "The Fed" is really comprised of 12 private banks, and about 35%-40% of the banks in the US hold stock in the FRB as well. The FRB is heavily regulated by the government, which we all know is a joke. All the real decisions concerning the FRB are made by the "Federal Open Market Committee". Five of those people come from the 12 private banks that make up the bulk of the FRB with the last 7 being appointed by the President. This is suppose to allow the Federal Government to control the FRB. When you start to look at who donates campaign funds though, things become far more clear as to who actually controls the FRB.

If you ever want to know where the corruption starts, just follow the money trail back.

Scott