Does anyone legally incinerate?

I recover and refine precious metals and purchase my scrap from scrapers with consideration to how I have to process it. For example, I don't process flatpacks simply because they require either wet ashing (which is a very dangerous acid reduction) or incineration. If I knew of someone I could trust, who could legally incinerate and used the correct equipment so that the values were not flying up the smoke stack, I would pay to have material reduced to ash so I could process it safely.

So this could be considered a suggestion as a way for someone who has these capabilities to make some money, but also a question, is there anyone on the board that can, or is willing to do this?

Thanks

Scott

I've thought about a design for several years now. A venturi/wet wash/incineration/catalyzation process(not necessarily in that order), followed with a pass-thru an ULPA filter bank. While I've gone through many iterations of this idea, I've come to the conclusion that the payback period on my equipment design makes it completely unrealistic to construct if PM recovery is my goal. If absolute cleansing of process waste is my goal, well, I've still got to figure out how to make my system cheaper. It'll probably never happen, but it's fun to work on. And I've had the oppurtunity to give a few of my ideas/designs to some of the "big boys" in the filtration industry.

Since about 1991 I have hand built venturi filtration systems for my salt water reef tanks.

When I started recovering and refining I discovered that because I was doing it on a small scale, I had to build most of my own equipment with the exception of things like a fume hood, etc.

I built a venturi wet fume scrubber that draws at 10cfm which is more than enough for several large reaction vessels, then I recover the solution from the scrubber which is basically weak nitric acid, and use it for other parts of my process. If you ever get to the point where you need to build a wet venturi fume scrubber for your idea, let me know. I would be more than happy to help.

Scott

Is your indicated 10 CFM for a liquid draw, or is that what you draw your exhaust (airborne)fumes at? If you are talking airside exhaust, what FPM do you have you're system calibrated to run? I'd be interested in learning about your specs. Thanks in advance.

As a boilermaker i can tell you that we have units that are fueled by bio mass / garbage. Also ethanol refineries dry and burn the left overs from the mash after the alcohol is extracted to produce steam. All of these plants meet epa guidelines for emissions. There is no reason why you couldnt go and make a package boiler sized incinerator or a small 50mw boiler fueled by the material of your choice. You would need to recover the heat and clean the emissions for it to work efficiently and legally. But the emissions controls you talked about are the exact same setup as we build. The smoke goes through the catalyst first, the fabric filter second, the scrubber third, then out the stack. Im not an engineer, i just do what they tell us to do. The problem going large scale is getting the permits and paying off all the politicians to make it happen.

package boiler:
MBB POWER SERVICES INC. SLIDE SHOW

me in the green jacket working on a very small locomotive boiler for a small scale model railroad:
http://local83.shutterfly.com/236

standard emissions/generation schematic:
Diagram of a thermal CHP power plant (Source: ATP). - Image - Power Technology

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DWJ

Is your indicated 10 CFM for a liquid draw, or is that what you draw your exhaust (airborne)fumes at? If you are talking airside exhaust, what FPM do you have you're system calibrated to run? I'd be interested in learning about your specs. Thanks in advance.

---

The venturi works on water pressure, but it draws air off a T...

A pump, pumps water up to a specific height where it is sprayed down the exhaust stack, the sprinkler is off a tee so the water continues, the pressure is high enough to supply both, to a drop down pipe that feeds into a venturi that has a T, as the water shoots through the venturi, it draws 10cfm off the T into the water, so you are effectively mixing the air with the water, then it drops down into a sump where it is suspended in water and forced into the chamber the exhaust is it, then it has to work it's way through the stacked/packed exhaust pipe only to be sprayed down by the sprinkler, when I have a chance I'll make a diagram if there is interest.

Scott

You can purchase medical incinerators, I have almost done so at auction. It's not the incinerator itself that I have an issue with, there are many different types, sizes, used, etc. It's the EPA requirements. I live in California, near San Francisco. California EPA is extremely strict when it comes to incinerating.

Scott

Thanks for the liniks JGHilino! I like the link to the CHP powerplant very much. I'd love to see a SOO(sequence of operation) spec, as well as a controls diagram/print on that plant. And I realize that's usually considered "sensitive" information, but I'd love to see that info to completely understand it's operational sequence. Thanks again for the info!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NobleMetalWorks

I recover and refine precious metals and purchase my scrap from scrapers with consideration to how I have to process it. For example, I don't process flatpacks


Scott

---

What are flatpacks ?

flatpacks are gpus basically, a fiber cpu without pins is the best way to describe it, i have several pounds of flatpacks ive stripped from boards and removed the built in heatsinks, saving them up for a rainy day i guess

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bear

What are flatpacks ?

---

You forgot to take notes;
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...2qAe6VyQ6TAwrz

I'd love to see you're diagram Noble. This 10 CFM number that's come up in a couple of posts confuses me, and maybe this is where I'm making one of my calculation mistakes. To me it isn't keeping a flow of 10 CFM through the wet wash, it is more important to me to keep a velocity rate below 30 FPM regardless of CFM. Further, my testing has shown that it's advantageous to keep the velocity around 6500-8500 FPM through a venturi prior to a wet wash. I'd love to hear comparisons based on experience from anyone out there. BTW, the only cost effective recovery I could expect from my system would be lead from CRT's, and by my math it would take around 300,000 of them a year to pay off my machine(with pure lead @0.55/lb) within 4 years. Dare to dream, it's been fun think about it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mechanic688

You forgot to take notes;
https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/i...2qAe6VyQ6TAwrz

---

id call that an ic chip, sounds like our definitions of flat pack vary

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jghilino

id call that an ic chip, sounds like our definitions of flat pack vary

---

Here is also another pic of a flatpack; the one above is a quad flatpack. Some places "loosely" call them Ic's.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/i...0Z2yH5s_NSqhMi

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bear

What are flatpacks ?

---

SMTs (Surface Mount Package)

Here are some pictures:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/56505223/m0029930.JPG

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/56505223/gc...208-02_1_2.jpg

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/56505223/klbLw.jpg

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/56505223/si...acked_mcm1.jpg

They are usually made of plastic and contain fine gold wires. If processed properly the yields can be decent.

Scott

You would likely have to ship it out of California then, have it incinerated elsewhere, and then shipped back ?

There was a recent thread on here of a guy who left the east coast somewhere, and moved his operation all the way to, Idaho I believe it was, just for some similar reason( I think he possibly registered here as a buyer recently)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bear

You would likely have to ship it out of California then, have it incinerated elsewhere, and then shipped back ?

---

That's exactly right, or for example, if I purchased a large quantity I would have it shipped directly to my trusted business associate to incinerate, then when they ship it to me it's been reduced so much that it would fit in a small flat rate box. When you ash electronics/plastics, they reduce to almost nothing. You could reduce 25 lbs of plastic to about 1-2 lbs of material.

Scott

haha, that's when you'd have to watch em! I once worked in Homestake Gold Mine, and when a stope was really rich, they wouldn't let the miners back in after a blast, until the guys in white suits had first gone in to retrieve the bits loose enough to carry in their briefcases ; )

This is the very reason why I no longer toll refine. When precious metals are involved, there are so many shady characters, including the major refineries, willing and waiting for the chance to steal. Because there are so many refiners, large refiners, who rip people off, it gives all refiners a bad name. That means, for the small refiner, that we have to work extra hard if we are toll refining, so that our customers know we are not stealing from them. But here is the other flip side of the problem, people always believe, with their entire being, that there is more gold in their material than their actually is.

I process material I purchase now, instead of toll refining for others. That way the transaction is done, both parties agree to the price, and there is no cheating anyone out of anything.

Scott

I have a 1/4" steel sheet with an angle iron welded on as a backstop to hold the motherboard in place while shearing of the IC's with my air chisel. You will find that more than just flatpacks have gold bonding wires inside.

Had a truck load of telcomm boards, that I had removed the IC's after incinerating ball milled everything into powder then stored into 20 liter pails, during our move once again placed and forgotten about.

About this time last year once again found the pails, tipped the contents onto a plastic drop cloth then using a magnet from a trailer axle equipped with electric brakes and my large battery charger removed all the magnetic scrap then put everything away to work on my catalytic leaching project.

Came across these two pails once again last week, anyhow a large pick up truck load of boards will net you about 80 lbs of ash. I tried panning the values from the ash this evening but discovered that ball milling ground everything much to fine to pan out.

So the project goes back on hold, getting the shop organized takes priority.

Pictures of the shearing station and my home built ball mill.

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/...m/100_7078.jpg

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/...m/100_7079.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gustavus

I have a 1/4" steel sheet with an angle iron welded on as a backstop to hold the motherboard in place while shearing of the IC's with my air chisel. You will find that more than just flatpacks have gold bonding wires inside.

Had a truck load of telcomm boards, that I had removed the IC's after incinerating ball milled everything into powder then stored into 20 liter pails, during our move once again placed and forgotten about.

About this time last year once again found the pails, tipped the contents onto a plastic drop cloth then using a magnet from a trailer axle equipped with electric brakes and my large battery charger removed all the magnetic scrap then put everything away to work on my catalytic leaching project.

Came across these two pails once again last week, anyhow a large pick up truck load of boards will net you about 80 lbs of ash. I tried panning the values from the ash this evening but discovered that ball milling ground everything much to fine to pan out.

So the project goes back on hold, getting the shop organized takes priority.

Pictures of the shearing station and my home built ball mill.

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/...m/100_7078.jpg

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/...m/100_7079.jpg

---

Nice set up...

I use a ball mill as well, does a great job on some times of material.

I use a classification screen used in panning/prospecting to sift the gold wires. Works fairly well.

Scott

Have you inquired about this at the gold refining forum?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ewasted

Have you inquired about this at the gold refining forum?

---

I daresay that myself, patnor1011 and noidea from the gold forum are the pioneers of working with incinerated IC's with patnor1011 being the only one to offer toll refining for this type of material.

There are plenty of GRF members who will refine your material after being pyrolyzed, Barren Realms 007 comes to mind.

The best way to process is to flux up your ash then melt the metals into an anode. bag the anode then part the copper onto a stainless steel cathode.

To cast my anodes I use a cast iron frying pan oiled up before pouring in the molten metals, the oil creates instant carbon your metal will not stick to the cast iron..

Ammens book on refining precious metals gives formulas for electylites used for gold, silver and copper parting cells.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NobleMetalWorks

This is the very reason why I no longer toll refine. When precious metals are involved, there are so many shady characters, including the major refineries, willing and waiting for the chance to steal. Because there are so many refiners, large refiners, who rip people off, it gives all refiners a bad name. That means, for the small refiner, that we have to work extra hard if we are toll refining, so that our customers know we are not stealing from them. But here is the other flip side of the problem, people always believe, with their entire being, that there is more gold in their material than their actually is.

I process material I purchase now, instead of toll refining for others. That way the transaction is done, both parties agree to the price, and there is no cheating anyone out of anything.

Scott

---

Ha imagine that someone in the scrap industry trying to rip someone off!!!! The real problem with smelting is there is not a gold standard or certain way that everything is smelted and recovered. Everyone has a different process and way of doing it.

Its just like being a steel mill and trying to buy everything for as cheap as possible and trying to get maximum return out of your melt. Every mill has a different way of melting there steel, different buying program, different alloys produced, different mixing programs, different grades of material they buy, etc. In my opinions there are to many variables to smelting for it to get as close as you can to 100 percent recovery. There is going to be waste and material up the stack and into the baghouse. IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PistoneScrapProcessing

Ha imagine that someone in the scrap industry trying to rip someone off!!!! The real problem with smelting is there is not a gold standard or certain way that everything is smelted and recovered. Everyone has a different process and way of doing it.

Its just like being a steel mill and trying to buy everything for as cheap as possible and trying to get maximum return out of your melt. Every mill has a different way of melting there steel, different buying program, different alloys produced, different mixing programs, different grades of material they buy, etc. In my opinions there are to many variables to smelting for it to get as close as you can to 100 percent recovery. There is going to be waste and material up the stack and into the baghouse. IMO.

---

Hmm when a laboratory can assay gold in parts per million from a ton of ore not much if any loss there if any at all.

Greenwood B.C. ran a large gold smelter early 1900's, there are huge slag piles everywhere and not a gram of gold to be found in the slag, someone must have been doing something right.

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=greenw...en&sa=N&tab=wl

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gustavus

Hmm when a laboratory can assay gold in parts per million from a ton of ore not much if any loss there if any at all.

Greenwood B.C. ran a large gold smelter early 1900's, there are huge slag piles everywhere and not a gram of gold to be found in the slag, someone must have been doing something right.

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=greenw...en&sa=N&tab=wl

---

Gus come one you and I both know mining and smelting scrap are two completely different animals. I have never seen acids and incineration used in any mines I have ever cut scrap in. I never knew they were mining pcb boards up there.

Gus, have you thought of using a blue bowl type concentrator to seperate the fine gold out? Mike


https://www.google.com/search?q=blue...w=1280&bih=690

Actually I have leached cons with the HCl/Cl method.

Smelting is used in mining, sometimes it's the only way to separate metals from others efficiently. For example, if there is not enough silver to dore it and run as a silver proposition, then the silver has to either be upgraded, or removed. So it's often smelted with another metal it has more affinity for and thus is separated from the other amalgam. Then the process is repeated to separate out the other metals.

Also, depending upon the type of ore you are dealing with, the cons may be incinerated or roasted to convert chlorides to their metallic form, or to drive off sulfides, etc.

Precious metals often times are not in their metallic form when mined. There are actually very few that exist naturally in their metallic form, most are in their mineral form and must be somehow converted into their metallic form.

All of the processes that I currently use to recover and refine PMs, with the exception of one, have been used 100s of years before electronics were ever dreamed of. Point in case is Aqua Regia, it was first discovered at used in AD 800 by the Persian Alchemist Geber. And smelting goes all the way back to the copper age, even before the bronze age. So Aqua Regia, chemical refining with acids, is about 1200+ years old, and smelting, which started during the copper age, goes back over 5000 years. And there were obviously no computers back then.

Scott

A few pictures of the electric trailer brake magnet doing its job, these magnets are meant for intermittent use and get very hot with extended use so I have decided to go with an AC magnet which has a much better duty cycle.

Trailer Brake Magnet.
http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/...0forum/mag.jpg

AC Magnet.

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/...orum/ACMag.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by miked

Gus, have you thought of using a blue bowl type concentrator to seperate the fine gold out? Mike


https://www.google.com/search?q=blue...w=1280&bih=690

---

Yes I have been thinking about the bowel for awhile now, even watched a few Youtube Vids, the bowel is cheap or easy to make as a do it yourself project. I believe the bowel is very good at recovering visible gold.

My problem is that the precious metals are more like flour, I have a metallic sheen floating on top of my water, dish soap does nothing to help drop the metal powder while in this fine state. So it looks like an acid proposition.