Theft versus appropriation

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12-26-2011, 03:32 AM
Redback

Theft versus appropriation

Hello all ,

A gentleman down under wound up in some trouble after removing a vacuum cleaner from a council pick up pile...here's what happened.....Thanks to ABC news for the story.

"Updated March 23, 2011 07:11:00

Police say the idea that items abandoned on nature strips are council property is an urban myth. (Byron Shire Council)

The arrest of a Melbourne man, who says he took a vacuum cleaner from a hard rubbish collection, has raised questions about the legality of scavenging abandoned goods.

Police questioned the man after the vacuum cleaner was taken from outside a house in Kimberley Drive, at Chirnside Park in Melbourne's east, about 12:15am.

Earlier today police were reported as saying that stealing from a nature strip was considered theft of council property.

But Victorian Police Superintendent Jeff Forti says the 58-year-old man from Lilydale has not been charged, and was released after speaking to police.

"He claimed that he'd collected [the vacuum cleaner] from hard rubbish collection, and inquiries need to be made to see if that's true," he said.

"If the property had in fact been abandoned by the owner, then there would be no theft and there would be no further police action.

"If the property came from elsewhere or hadn't been abandoned by an owner, then we would proceed with the charge of theft."

Superintendent Forti says the idea that items abandoned on nature strips are council property is an urban myth.

"If the property has been abandoned, it doesn't have an owner any more. Anybody can come and take it and it's not theft," he said.

Len Cox, the deputy mayor of Yarra Ranges Council, where the man was arrested, says the council does not know what prompted police to get involved.

But he also rejected suggestions that hard rubbish belonged to council once placed on a nature strip.

"Council does not have a local law to prohibit people taking items put out for hard waste collection," he said in a statement.

"Any items placed out for hard waste collection remain the property of the resident until collected by the contractor."

Controversial practice

Monash University's Ruth Lane has interviewed Melbourne residents about their attitudes towards hard rubbish collection.

She told ABC News Online that many residents are happy for their neighbours to go through their rubbish once it is out on a nature strip.

But some people do not like people scavenging through items left outside their homes.

"It leaves a bit of a mess in the streets," she said.

"Some people feel that's it's associated with a few unsavoury characters coming into the neighbourhood. It makes people feel a bit anxious."

She says contractors first send out trucks to get scrap metal - the most valuable part of hard rubbish - and the rest is usually taken to landfill.

Dr Lane says in some council areas it is quite legal to scavenge. Other councils have by-laws that assign the right to collect to contractors alone.

Municipal Association of Victoria president Bill McArthur says people who take valuable goods reduce the chance councils will offer collection services.

Mr McArthur says scavenging makes the service less viable, and makes contractors less interested in taking on the job.

"For the contractor there is the chance to actually make money out of the recycled materials: the scrap metal and other salvagables," he said.

"Anything that makes the service less attractive to contractors and less viable, it lessens the chance of the community being able to utilise a service such as this."

Source: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-03-2...enging/2647688
12-26-2011, 04:56 AM
skipRAT

Finders Keepers is the way i see it?

We have had similar problems int he UK.

Is it theft by finding?
NO

Once someone leaves an item outside for collection of "Rubbish"
the owner has renounced all property rights in the object, then the property is abandoned

Quote:

"Any items placed out for hard waste collection remain the property of the resident until collected by the contractor."

A quick knock on the door could solve this?
But this is just out of courtesy, the owner has renounced all property rights in the object by leaving the said property outside as rubbish!

Finders keepers!
12-27-2011, 08:40 AM
newattitude

Quote:

Mr McArthur says scavenging makes the service less viable, and makes contractors less interested in taking on the job.

You know, I have never thought of scrapping from this angle before. But, do all waste collecting companies separate and recycle for profit that which is not regular garbage? I'd have to think not because recyclables are still ending up in landfills.
12-27-2011, 09:49 AM
KzScrapper

Suburb I live in hasn't taken our right to choose trash companies YET, so our small time trash company let's the workers grab wire etc. and stash it as they go.
12-28-2011, 03:53 AM
LadyScrappers

We had something similar to this happen in NH recently in one of the bigger cities where it was a big debate between a contracting company and people going around taking cans from garbage out on the curb; in this case recyclables are separated.

In our own small town here, however, recycling is optional, so many of the waste contractors don't separate out the recyclables and it all goes into the MSW - meaning the town pays more money. So, it would actually be more profitable - to our town and other towns that don't separate recyclables - if people garbage picked.
12-28-2011, 06:18 AM
skipRAT

Redback, upon further reading of the link you supplied, i have a question:
In Australia am i right in saying that the term "nature strip" literally means,
An area of grass beside a roadway,?

In the photo provided it show what appears to be an area which has large amounts of "Rubbish" that has been dumped, yes?
In the UK this would be considered "Fly-tipping"
"The act or process of illegally disposing of waste materials"
This is illegal.
The property would belong to no-one and therefor be considered abandoned?

Quote:

Superintendent Forti says the idea that items abandoned on nature strips are council property is an urban myth.

"If the property has been abandoned, it doesn't have an owner any more. Anybody can come and take it and it's not theft," he said.

Abandon:
To relinquish ones rights completely of all ownership.

Quote:

"Council does not have a local law to prohibit people taking items put out for hard waste collection," he said in a statement.

I really cannot see why the Police got involved in this and why this man was arrested?

Quote:

Mr McArthur says scavenging makes the service less viable, and makes contractors less interested in taking on the job.

I disagree, the idea that contractors are only making money out of the small amount of metal and other salvageable items is wrong!
These contractors are making money, day in day out from all waste!

Finders Keepers
01-01-2012, 04:13 AM
wayne

Hi skipRAT

In England and Wales it's not so much a matter of finders keepers. I'd like to start by saying you hit the nail on the head when you said that a quick knock on the door can solve things. It's so easy to do, and most times you get a yes anyway. If someone does say no, then it's a good job that you asked in the first place before taking it and getting into trouble for a bit of metal.

The issue with abandonment is a bit more tricky. It all comes down to whose land the metal sits on, and the intent of the owner of the metal or the owner of the land. Some examples would be:

Metal exhausts left in a metal only skip outside a car repair business. These are clearly meant to be sold as scrap, so taking them without permission would be theft. That's an easy one.

Now if the skip was full and some exhausts were left on the ground next to that skip, it would be reasonable to infer that the intent of the owners of the car repair business would be that the scrap exhausts were also to be sold as scrap, and that it was just a matter of the skip being too full to accommodate them. Taking the exhausts on the ground next to the skip would also be theft.

Now imagine the skip had been collected, and for whatever reason, a new skip was not delivered. What you now have is some scrap exhausts laying on the ground next to a car repair business. Is this metal abandoned? When you have all the facts above, the scrap exhausts are clearly not abandoned. They might look it, and you might assume they were, but you would be wrong. The intent of the car repair business is to put them in the next skip and sell them when that skip is full.

So what about taking stuff out of skips you find by the side of the road? Perhaps a skip used for clearing out a house that now has no occupants, or a house that has been refurbished by builders. The builders have finished their work and gone. There is no one at the property to ask permission from. You spot a washing machine perched nicely on top of the skip. Is it abandoned? Can you lawfully take it without permission?

The answer is no. At that point, the washing machine belongs to the skip company, and if you took it you would be stealing from them. Most skip companies now sort through the waste in their skips after they have removed them, and they certainly remove metal from the skips to sell by the ton. Taking the washing machine from the skip is unlawful, and you could certainly end up with a charge of theft by finding. Whether you would be found guilty at trial though is another matter, but in my opinion I would say that it is certainly possible.

As for TV's and white goods left abandoned by the side of the road - you could argue the case for hours, which is a job for lawyers who earn big money. In reality you could say you are doing our 'Big Society' a favour and taking it to the dump. It's just that on the way the TV got lighter :)

Like you said earlier, common sense is the best approach. Ask first, take second. And help out the Big Society by picking up abandoned stuff :)