ACR Granulation worth it?

Hey guys. Wondering if anyone has ever gotten into this? Does anyone have any type of info on an average Copper: Aluminum ratio?
I understand that obviously there are single, double, triple stacks, so the numbers won't be constant.

I'm looking to bid on 450,000lbs - 500,000lbs a month from a factory. I own a Weima single shaft that I can pre-shred the ACRs. A company close to me is closing up, and they offered me their 6 month old granulation system for a quarter of that they paid for it. Comes with a dual shaft shredder, granulator, dust collection, air separation etc.

Times are tough right now for scrap yard owners. I'm no different. Looking to get into something more constant and perpetual rather than sitting around and waiting for something to happen.

Hey there. We shred them where I work. Your recovery should average at least 50% copper by weight with the triple stacks and higher having better recovery but being harder to shred. Preshredding before using a shredder + granulator process should help with the larger rads. The hard part right now is aluminum prices are so low that the labor costs - depending on the kind of shredding process you're being offered - will challenge your returns. Also it's not always possibly to sell the copper flake produced above number 2 Cu prices. Reach out if I can be of any help. Can for sure be profitable.

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for the reply!

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Originally Posted by IronShredder

Times are tough right now for scrap yard owners. I'm no different. Looking to get into something more constant and perpetual rather than sitting around and waiting for something to happen.

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I think we all here in one form or another are looking into getting something more constant and perpetual.

Hey went and double checked the maths and you'll likely exceed 50% *only* if including the larger multi-stack rads. Otherwise between 45-50%.

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Originally Posted by JJinLV

Hey went and double checked the maths and you'll likely exceed 50% *only* if including the larger multi-stack rads. Otherwise between 45-50%.

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Thanks again. Huge help. It seems you guys are into doing this. Has it been profitable on your end?

Since aluminum prices tanked it's lower on our priority list and we've reconfigured our chopper setups for wire instead. Our particular ACR shredding setup required one person to chop off the ends with the soldering (so we could sell the flake close to a number one cu price - without removing the soldered end it'll only be #2 pricing you'll get), one person to feed and at least three people to pick out the aluminum and number 2 cu off the conveyer out the vibrating table. That was the minimal labor input (not counting buying, selling, loading and unloading trucks etc). Doing that when we could sell the Al flake at $.70/+ made a lot more sense than now when it is as low as half that. So the profitability has varied dramatically with the price of aluminum even more than copper. Running a regular 8hr shift we can produce a ftl of Cu flake (43000+ pounds) every week with some ease.

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Originally Posted by JJinLV

Since aluminum prices tanked it's lower on our priority list and we've reconfigured our chopper setups for wire instead. Our particular ACR shredding setup required one person to chop off the ends with the soldering (so we could sell the flake close to a number one cu price - without removing the soldered end it'll only be #2 pricing you'll get), one person to feed and at least three people to pick out the aluminum and number 2 cu off the conveyer out the vibrating table. That was the minimal labor input (not counting buying, selling, loading and unloading trucks etc). Doing that when we could sell the Al flake at $.70/+ made a lot more sense than now when it is as low as half that. So the profitability has varied dramatically with the price of aluminum even more than copper. Running a regular 8hr shift we can produce a ftl of Cu flake (43000+ pounds) every week with some ease.

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Thanks for the reply. I spoke to my broker yesterday morning. I would be getting .63¢/lb on the aluminum 1100 flake, and #1 pricing on the copper flake (again, like you said, if I were to cut the ends off). The nice thing about this setup is it's all machines, meaning Id pretty much just need one guy to load it. This comes with magbelts prior to the granulator, afterwards has a vibrating air separation table, and dust collection. I think I can run this system without too many employees to keep the labor costs down.

Did the folks you're getting it from have just one person operating it? You'll still need one more person at least to operate it to cut the ends and swap gaylords/supersacks. Really interested in learning more about the setup. Even at peak efficiency we produce a secondary ACR chop mix that has to be chopped finer from Al/Cu pieces that didn't separate during the initial chop. Plus you have to watch the Cu flake come out because a lot of radiators use tinned copper which can't be sold at #1 no matter what. Sometimes they're fairly obvious to the trained eye looking at the cut ends but often they're not and it only take one heavy-ish one to contaminate a whole box and get it downgraded by the mill that buys it. Suppose if it's a fine enough chop it would matter less but if it's that fine it'll be hard to get 1100 flake price for the aluminum, you'd be stuck with a shavings/borings price. Really curious about this.

If/when aluminum goes back up you can get around $1/lb for that 1100 flake which making it good and profitable to buy clean talk as high as $1.25-1.30/lb

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Originally Posted by JJinLV

Did the folks you're getting it from have just one person operating it? You'll still need one more person at least to operate it to cut the ends and swap gaylords/supersacks. Really interested in learning more about the setup. Even at peak efficiency we produce a secondary ACR chop mix that has to be chopped finer from Al/Cu pieces that didn't separate during the initial chop. Plus you have to watch the Cu flake come out because a lot of radiators use tinned copper which can't be sold at #1 no matter what. Sometimes they're fairly obvious to the trained eye looking at the cut ends but often they're not and it only take one heavy-ish one to contaminate a whole box and get it downgraded by the mill that buys it. Suppose if it's a fine enough chop it would matter less but if it's that fine it'll be hard to get 1100 flake price for the aluminum, you'd be stuck with a shavings/borings price. Really curious about this.

If/when aluminum goes back up you can get around $1/lb for that 1100 flake which making it good and profitable to buy clean talk as high as $1.25-1.30/lb

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Take a look at a system from cable management in Meriden CT. Very efficient systems. I sell wire to them and have had tours of his plant. You could also try to contact SMF member Missouri,. Roy was supposed to have a C1 system from cable management installed recently. Not sure if he added a single shaft shredder to it, which would make processing acr easier.

Funny you mention Cable Management. I spoke to them about their system a few weeks ago. They sent me a quote for $531,454 for that ACR setup. There's no way I can 1) afford that, and 2) ever see a return on that investment. The system I purchased has all the same components (single shaft, mag belt, granulator, air separation, cyclone dust system, control panel, conveyors) so I'm hoping for the same results. I don't know if I mentioned but I also purchased a Wiema Single shaft shredder to pre-shred the bales before entering into the smaller shredder which was included with my system. That way I don't have to pay someone break up the bales. I wish I knew how to post pics on here. I'd sent some pics to show you guys.

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Originally Posted by IronShredder

Funny you mention Cable Management. I spoke to them about their system a few weeks ago.

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I talked to them this week too lol. I'm waiting for a few quotes on their smaller wire granulators. I'm mainly looking into their CM-Mini or the C-1/C-2. I was looking to build one myself, and it can be done, but things get complicated when you introduce the density separation into the equation. I do have plans to get a hammer/chopper mill built sometime next year.

I just see how expensive some of this equipment is and I think that someone could build one themselves for a fraction of the cost.

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Originally Posted by 406Refining

I talked to them this week too lol. I'm waiting for a few quotes on their smaller wire granulators. I'm mainly looking into their CM-Mini or the C-1/C-2. I was looking to build one myself, and it can be done, but things get complicated when you introduce the density separation into the equation. I do have plans to get a hammer/chopper mill built sometime next year.

I just see how expensive some of this equipment is and I think that someone could build one themselves for a fraction of the cost.

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The mini is in the 25 to 30 range. C1 about 50 and C2 about 80. They had a used C2 available a couple weeks ago. Think they were asking 52.

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Originally Posted by IronShredder

Funny you mention Cable Management. I spoke to them about their system a few weeks ago. They sent me a quote for $531,454 for that ACR setup. There's no way I can 1) afford that, and 2) ever see a return on that investment. The system I purchased has all the same components (single shaft, mag belt, granulator, air separation, cyclone dust system, control panel, conveyors) so I'm hoping for the same results. I don't know if I mentioned but I also purchased a Wiema Single shaft shredder to pre-shred the bales before entering into the smaller shredder which was included with my system. That way I don't have to pay someone break up the bales. I wish I knew how to post pics on here. I'd sent some pics to show you guys.

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I believe they have customers running acr with a C1 setup. Those are in the 50k range. Would probably add a single shaft shredder with a conveyor and mag belt. That would probably put you in the low 100s

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Originally Posted by IronShredder

Funny you mention Cable Management. I spoke to them about their system a few weeks ago. They sent me a quote for $531,454 for that ACR setup. There's no way I can 1) afford that, and 2) ever see a return on that investment. The system I purchased has all the same components (single shaft, mag belt, granulator, air separation, cyclone dust system, control panel, conveyors) so I'm hoping for the same results. I don't know if I mentioned but I also purchased a Wiema Single shaft shredder to pre-shred the bales before entering into the smaller shredder which was included with my system. That way I don't have to pay someone break up the bales. I wish I knew how to post pics on here. I'd sent some pics to show you guys.

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Going back to your first post, I'd guess they quoted you a C4 system.

It was actually never stated in the quote as to the name of the system. The quote just has listed all the components that are included in the price. When I called and spoke to the salesman, I said I want a price on this exact setup:
https://youtu.be/T_w9xYcnFlw
I must please ignorance in this, as my "sticker shock" partly came from the fact that had no idea where to even begin knowing a price on such a setup. I'm my mind, I just had it in my head something like this would cost around $200-$250k.

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Originally Posted by IronShredder

It was actually never stated in the quote as to the name of the system. The quote just has listed all the components that are included in the price. When I called and spoke to the salesman, I said I want a price on this exact setup:
https://youtu.be/T_w9xYcnFlw
I must please ignorance in this, as my "sticker shock" partly came from the fact that had no idea where to even begin knowing a price on such a setup. I'm my mind, I just had it in my head something like this would cost around $200-$250k.

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Looks like a C4 turbo deluxe with a single shaft shredder in place of a dual shaft shredder.