Lead-Acid battery converted to Lead-Alum - YouTube
found this interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeKnDxWRHYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUmDvENKPig
These Vids show a new future is coming
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Lead-Acid battery converted to Lead-Alum - YouTube
found this interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeKnDxWRHYI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUmDvENKPig
These Vids show a new future is coming
Honestly, this type of thing kind of angers me when I see people doing experiments of this type, without any actual understanding or knowledge of what exactly they are doing. Then they propagate this information all across youtube and the internet as if it's some type of secret perpetual energy that the government is trying to cover up or big corporations are attempting to buy the patents for and put on the shelf.
What is actually happening when these batteries are "changed over" from sulfuric acid/lead to alum/lead?
I'll tell you what is probably happening, and I'll try to do so without getting into too much chemistry.
First, an electrolytic solution in a batter works when you mix the proper ingredients together, and starts to create electricity without having to be charged. It's because of the reaction between the sulfuric acid and the lead. So keep that in mind.
If you watch the videos on these types of batteries, you will see they always talk about charging the battery once it's been changed over, and "plating" properly. Well yeah, that makes sense, but to someone who doesn't understand what is being said, it sounds like magic.
Before I explain what the plating is, lets first break down what Alum actually is instead of using it's industrial name. Alum = Hydrated Potassium Aluminum Sulfate or it's formula would be KAl(SO4)2·12H2O
So if we break it down, we are dealing with:
One molecule of Potassium
One molecule of Aluminum
Two molecules of Sulfate 4
And 12 molecules of H20 which is water
Alum is water soluble, keep that in mind also
I know this doesn't make sense, but it's also dry, it's dry and yet is holding water. That's chemistry for you.
A good way to help you understand what exactly alum is, instead of giving you all the information above, might be to explain how it's made, or at least the ingredients
It's really a mix of Potassium Hydroxide in aqueous form, Aluminum and guess what, Sulfuric Acid. For those of you that are smart, you are thinking "wait a min" sulfuric acid? that's right, that's where the SO4 or Sulfate comes from. You see Chemistry when explained isn't that difficult to understand.
So if you make one of these so called Alum batteries, you first remove all the, what, SULFURIC ACID, from the battery. Then basically, you mix Alum in Water, it readily dissolves. Then you put an electrical charge to it?
When I refine precious metals using a parting cell, I use an electrolytic solution that will dissolve the metal when an electrical charge is put to it, as an anode. This dissolves the metals into solution that then will be plated out on the cathode. PLATED out, just like Plated was discussed in the making of this so called battery.
So you dissolve Alum in water, you apply the electrical charge, because the Alum dissolved in the water, you now have Aluminum and Potassium with Sulfate, but with an electrical charge you start to plate out the Aluminum, you are effectively parting the Aluminum from the Sulfate, which in turn creates??? Drum roll??? Sulfuric ACID, the very thing that they claim to be removing and making this harmless electrolytic solution. But this type of battery will not work very well because you still have another pollutant, Potassium.
So by charging, flipping the leads, applying electricity, over and over and over, you are able to part most of the Sulfate, freeing it up to be Sulfuric Acid. But because you still have Aluminum and Potassium polluting your electrolytic solution, it doesn't hold a charge long and doesn't have the cranking amps a more pure lead/sulfuric acid battery would. You are essentially creating a polluted weaker version of what the battery started out being in the first place.
Now what really chaps my hide is that these people are not only running around with their quake remedies, but claiming they are making a safe electrolytic solution that is really a weak Sulfuric Acid solution with Potassium and Aluminum. That isn't at all a "safe" solution. Just because you start out with something you can cook with doesn't mean you can break it apart and it will still stay relatively harmless.
I could spend a lifetime looking up this garbage on youtube and messaging the people screwing around with chemistry they don't understand, and try to explain it to them until I am blue in the face, but it doesn't make any difference, not ever. They are convinced, because they so fervently want to believe, that they have found some special super secret way to do something that nobody else knows how to do. They will never listen, and will continue to insist even when someone is driving them to a hospital because they made a terrible mistake in their misunderstanding of chemistry, and acids, that "they know",
Copper Head, I don't blame you at all, matter of fact it's nice to have the chance to totally defunct this type of garbage, but be careful. YoutTube and the Internet is full of people claiming all kinds of things that just simply are not true, are outright lies, and can get you seriously hurt if you attempt these things without understanding what it is you are actually doing.
While I'm on my soap box, let me also say one more thing. Everything we know about inorganic chemistry was known somewhere in the 60s. It's all laid out, it's all a known. New processes based one what is already known are created, but still, we as the human race know everything there is to know about inorganic chemistry already. It's Organic Chemistry that is the mystery. So whenever you run across garbage like this that makes claims like people who make alum batteries do, just ignore them. Specially if they are wearing a super decoder ring they got out of a cracker jack box. Don't waste your time even bothering to give them any credibility.
I apologize if I sound irritated, but I can't help it, I am irritated, I can't believe people videotape this garbage and then spread it like a virus.
Anyway, off my soapbox for now but with one last message. If you value your life, your family, your health, don't go playing around with chemistry that you don't understand. Don't hurt yourself. Don't feel like you know and attempt something that someone told you was harmless like in these batteries, because the resulting chemistry can create sulfuric acid, or maybe something worse, just like in this video, and what happens after when you think the solution is safe to handle, can be anyone's guess. Think about this, in some of the videos they talk about switching the polarity to get better plating results, what happens when you reverse the polarity when you charge a car battery? It can explode right?
Duh
Scott
The idea of perpetual motion sounds great but it's just simply not true. An electric car powered this way could theoretically, as in the video, recharge its own batteries forever. But there is a reason why perpetual motion machines remain a fantasy, it's the Laws of Thermodynamics.
Some inventions may appear to run by perpetual motion, but they usually rely on a hidden source of external energy. I hope you noticed in the video how he said it's going to work, it should work, etc. But he never made the claim that it does work, or that it's being patented, or that he drives that car daily, or anything of that nature. Also, in the case of motors that use magnets to make the machine operate, well I'll explain in a minute.
Both the First and Second Laws of Thermodynamics keep the perpetual motion car on youtube and not in your garage. According to part of the First Law, energy cannot be created or destroyed, only changed to different forms. The batteries that power an electric car only contain a fixed amount of energy, finite. Most of this energy goes into propelling the electric motor, but some is inevitably lost through friction and the recreation of momentum after a stop. The car's recharger would have to create more energy in order to keep the batteries at full capacity. No such power generator exists, nor can one be built if the Laws of Thermodynamics are true.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics also prevents perpetual motion machines from becoming reality. Part of the Second Law states that heat energy inevitably seeks out cold areas, eventually creating a neutral temperature state called entropy. This means the car will eventually stop working from a lack of usable heat energy. The motor casing gets hot during work, and some of that heat energy would be dissipated into the air, or like the host specifically mentioned, they use a fan to dissipate the heat on purpose, but it does not go back into the battery system. And since other factors such as gravity and friction would be constantly pulling on the machine, eventually all of the usable energy would be lost over time.
Perpetual motion machines would only be possible if a substance could be found that generated more energy than it used. Some inventors hoped that radioactive materials would contain these properties, but their energy is still considered finite. Remember what I said about magnets, well they have also been used to power perpetual motion machines just like in the youtube video, but their continued operation usually requires some external energy source. But regardless if they do not or do not use an outside source of energy, the effectiveness of a magnet will be lost over time, it would eventually become too weak to propel any motion.
Because scientific laws and theories generally agree that perpetual motion is impossible, patent offices are very reluctant to grant patents for such machines. Proposed machines are the only devices that require a working model at the time of patent application. To date, no inventor has successfully submitted a working model of such a machine. This is the reason there exist no patents for perpetual motion machines, because they just simply do not, and cannot, exist. The laws of nature, physics and thermodynamics would have to cease to exist before anyone could make and patent a perpetual motion machine or motor of any type.
As much as I disagree with what our government does in the world as an entity, I would have an extremely difficult time believing that our government is covering anything up, or keeping anything secret. This is another false conspiracy theory put forth usually by the same quakes that claim that perpetual motion is real, and that free energy truly exists. Well if it truly does, get a patent and I'll eat my shorts!
Scott
Some of things I learn on this forum amaze me. Keeps a guy thinking...lol
Scott, you have a great gift for teaching. I have learned things from you I have never wanted to know.
This is not a bad thing as learning is an investment I can't loose on. I think it is because your passion is palatable.
A book I read often has a line in it that I love. "contempt prior to investigation leads to ever lasting ignorance".
I try to do my own homework on these sorts of things. I know with today's ease of publishing it is pretty easy
to make things sound better than they are. You can post or publish about anything now days without it being
fact checked. This means that you must always be ready to do your homework and fact checking. then in doing
that you have to be willing to look at different sides of things that you may not agree with. It is not always
easy to put aside what you think you know is right, or you want to be right so bad you can taste it and look
at the opposing view with an open mind.
It is kind of like the shingle recycling thing in a recent post, while the post instantly got me thinking that I may
be missing out on a revenue source, after I did my own homework and fact checking I found that it was and is
far more than I had thought originally.
Really we as scrappers should be very aware of this sort of thing. How many times have you heard that
computers are full of gold? Like you just flip it up and dump it out. I get at least one person a month
that tells me how easy it is to extract gold from ewaste, only to find that they are a janitor at the local
school. But they seen it on the internet....Go figure.
Copper Head I think this could prove to be an interesting post.
I was thinking the same thing...Quote:
Originally Posted by msearl3244
msearl3244 - you are very correct in the observation of "have to be willing to look at different sides of things that you may not agree with". My favorite assignment as an adjunct college professor in Psychology was to state "There should be no organized sports teams at any college.". I'd then poll the class as to whether they agreed or disagreed. The assignment was to take the opposite position and write a paper defending that viewpoint. Their grade depended on the strength of their argument.
The perpetual motion generator looks real and the inventor looks sincere, we know for sure oil is a commodity, so no need to go further on that.
Saving fuel is not a all or nothing bet. It can be a compromise, so if the perpetual motion generator needs a little help to start or once in a wile thats OK
My truck gets 18 to 20 MPG - at 30 mph or 70 mph - speed is not the issue . Time is the issue how long can I drive on $10 and it's around 3 hrs 4 hrs and thats about it
If some one invents a slew of interacting motors and generators that make my car move and if I find I can use my auto for 4 hrs for $1.75 that will make a difference .
These hopeful inventions could improve air quality but I feel if many autos did save massive on fuel consumption then fuel will hit $15 per gallon after all it's a commodity.
Things happen refineries stop working storms cause down time , they have us where they want us.
Thank you for saying that, it made my day, but I'm not so sure if I have a gift for teaching to be honest. I don't like the idea coming of as a "know-it-all" either. I tend to way over explain myself because I worry about not explaining myself well enough. Even now as I am writing this. My posts end up being walls of text, and this is oddly enough born of my own insecurities about being able to explain any given subject. For me, the posts that really impress me are always the one where the person is able to express so much with a simply few sentences. I have a world of respect for people like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by msearl3244
So I go back and read my posts and think to myself I should be able to shrink down what I have said, but never can find a way to do it. It's honestly frustrating. So I appreciate the comment more than you might think. But I also learn a ton anytime I crack open a thread I haven't yet read. That's why I keep coming back, posting while I work, because I learn so much and find such interesting and engaging topics. And that's because of people like Copper Head, you, any all the others who I read on a regular basis that are also posting or will post on this thread, and others, still. So long as this forum is made up of people, like those I seem to come into contact with every day, I will be unable to stay away for very long.
Copper Head, I like the way you think outside the box, I hope what I say doesn't discourage you from continuing to post the types of questions you post. It's really the questions that drive us to find answers after all. And your questions in other posts have led me to look up information that I had not really considered. In other words they have value.
Scott
I don't think gas prices have much to do with the oil companies wanting to make more money, I have heard this argument before, and it just doesn't make any sense to me, let me explain why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Copper Head
Here in the United States we hit peak oil around the mid 1970s, that's not world wide peak oil, just here in the US. We currently use about 25% of the worlds total oil production in the US, but we have just a little less than 5% of the worlds total population. So if 5% of the worlds population can use 25% of the worlds total oil production, what do you think is happening right now with countries that want to be like the US, and live by the same standards we do.
Peak Oil is when you hit a wall, and cannot pump oil out of the ground fast enough to supply the demand for it. You can think of it sort of like this. You drill a hole for water, you dig down to a depth until you hit a water aquifer. As soon as you tap into that water, you release built up pressure, the pressure or flow rate of the water is reduced by a small amount. Now your neighbor tapes into the same water aquifer, then another, and another, until several people are all pumping water out of the ground, so fast and in such a quantity that it drops your water pressure, even pumping, because there just isn't enough water to supply everyone trying to pump it out of the ground.
Peak Oil works in the same way. You have huge underground fields of oil, but you can only put so many wells on each of this underground oil fields. In many places, they actually pump water into these fields in order to keep the pressure up so they can pump it at the same rate. So although there is still a lot of oil, in the ground, and we probably will never run out of it in our lifetime, it is becoming a problem trying to pump it out of the ground fast enough to supply demand.
This is in part what is happening to our economy. If you cannot pump enough oil out of the ground to supply demand, then everything else is affected after, including industry. If that happens, then growth stops. In order for a free market or capitalist system to function properly, it requires constant growth. You cannot grow if you don't have oil to drive industry. And as more and more of the world demands to live like us, it puts more and more of a strain on current oil reserves.
So how do oil companies keep the worlds population from panicking, while at he same time retaining safe oil reserve amounts? They raise oil prices. So while oil companies are in the business of making money, when oil prices go up it's far more a function of trying to discourage people from buying gas, than it is the oil companies trying to squeeze more money out of you and me. That's why, in the winter when there is less demand for gas, the prices go down. During the summer, when the weather is good and people are on vacation, gas prices go up to discourage demand for gas. if this wasn't done, we would run into the same problem we did in 1974 when we had looong lines at the pumps, of people waiting to get gas. By raising prices the oil companies discourage travel, it's just that simple.
Currently we sell most of the production of our own oil to Japan. This is because the oil companies make more money selling to Japan, than they would refining and selling here in the United States, and it's very easy to ship straight across from Alaska to Japan, they are not that far from each other. This also complies with the wishes of several nature organizations, the oil doesn't have to be transported by ship along a pristine wildlife coast to get to the US to be refined. It also doesn't require more refineries on the West Coast. So it's a win/win for everyone. This is an example of the oil companies deciding to make a higher profit, on purpose. But still, even if we had the oil from Alaska refined in the USA for our own consumption, we wouldn't see a change in gas prices because the same problem would exist, supply and demand, while we would be using oil from Alaska, Japan would be paying more for oil from somewhere else, probably from someone we used to buy from. This would raise the prices of trade goods from Japan, which would affect our economy in a negative way. So in part, the oil we sell to Japan helps keep our economy and all those goods we purchase from Japan, reasonably priced.
So the prices you pay at the pump have more to do with the oil companies trying to discourage you to drive, rather than trying to make more profit, simply stated. But there are things you can do. Here is a really easy concept.
If you attach a powerful enough magnet on your fuel line, and you are able to re-align the molecule alignment of your gas so that they are line up positive to negative in long strings of carbon, they will burn more efficiently giving you a little more horsepower, which could increase your gas mileage. I understand the concept fairly well, but I'm not positive on flow rates or how powerful the magnet has to be. I'm sure you could probably google it and find someone who has probably created some kind of invention that does what I'm talking about. You might even be able to find the magnets you need to do it yourself. This is something I would be very interested in reading about if there are people out there looking for something interesting to try, and it would be really cheap, perhaps even free, for scrappers to rig something like this up and make it work. Matter of fact, if anyone is interested and wants to start a thread on this, i would be really happy to add my two cents if I am able to help out, to make this happen.
Sorry for writing another wall of text, the whole gas thing, and the state of our future is something that is often on my mind.
Scott
I should have commented on that in my original response. You are right, if there are motors that can supplement your car using gas, like hybrids, then it would or should be of benefit to use those technologies. I personally like the idea of the cars that use a small gas engine to generate electricity to drive motors that use very little.Quote:
Originally Posted by Copper Head
I have a friend that owns a TESLA, they are amazing cars with tons of torque, before I actually drove an all electric car, I just used to write them off as being a joke, I'm a big block kinda guy. But I do have to admit, they have a ton of torque and really press you back into the seat when you punch the gas, or electricity as the case may be.
Scott
NobleMetalWorks
Your answers are that of a teacher & now I see it matters not who has the oil to sell all of us need it (the world)
My scrap truck looks nasty yet has a computer on board for MPG , since I have hard drives I have those super strong magnets and plenty of micro wave magnets
I have a item that is for electric wire used by electric companies when they join AL wires with a aluminum splicer I have the plastic snap on covers for that application.
I could easily load magnets galore on both sides and then snap it on a fuel line .
If what you say is true magnetic gas lines might be the trick
Your wall of text is fine as you clearly state the point and you cover all grounds
I don't know about anyone else, but I actually prefer walls of text when you're explaining something. There's no way I would have understood some of the more advanced concepts you've discussed on the forum if you hadn't explained it like you did. For me personally, it makes it a lot easier to comprehend things like that when every little bit is spelled out in front of me. Being able to explain something in a few words is great, but odds are something was left out.Quote:
Originally Posted by NobleMetalWorks
John Bedini said to use straight aluminium sulphate and distilled water; Al2(SO4)3 + 12H2O.Quote:
Originally Posted by NobleMetalWorks
As I understand, it is not possible to obtain aluminium from the electrolysis of an aqueous solution of a salt; aluminium itself in this configuration is not soluable in water, and the water simply electrolyses in preference to aluminium sulphate, so the aluminum does not precipitate out;, So is it electro-plating onto one of the electrodes (Lead/Lead oxide)? Which one does it plate onto, the lead cathode (Reduction)?
I am interested in this myself because i have been researching solid state electrolytes for batteries, and thought that this conversion would be simple and cost effective, but now it does not sound so great. I originally came across this idea reading on T.T.Brown's work on petrovoltaics; I wanted to make a crystal power cell! It seemed a good idea as I was researching the topic, but nobody working on it could explain what exactly was going on. I myself have made one such "lead-alum" battery from a 6v 2aH for testing to verify if this was in fact some kind of internet myth, now it seems it very well may be. Well the battery works, but as you said, the surge current that was once in the battery basically went away. Of course, there is no free energy here!
I do want to point out that this experiment does work with any 2 pieces of conductor with an electrode potential difference commuting through the proposed electrolyte, whether the electrolyte is liquid or solid. Wheather or not this is a good idea is another thing entirely.
Cheers!
Aluminum Sulfate is a salt, soluble in water, matter of fact it's made by mixing Aluminum Hydroxide with Water and Sulfuric Acid.Quote:
Originally Posted by djbuggybee
Aluminum Sulfate dissolves in the water the solution will contain positive aluminum ions, and negative sulphate ions. Now remember you also have hydroxide, which is really Lye. So once electricity is applied and the circuit is completed, the aluminum oxidizes and small amounts will plate out on the lead cathodes. We are not talking about large amounts, and we are not talking about precipitating aluminum, we are talking about plating small amounts of aluminum oxide on lead cathodes.
Now all it takes is to break the circuit, and the aluminum oxide easily comes off, most will just fall off and if not any jostling will help it fall off. As Aluminum is removed from the electrolyte the sulphate ion is liberated and converts back into sulfuric acid. Applying the electrical current over and over and stopping between will eventually remove most of the Aluminum and liberate most of the sulphate ions.
Battery acid is really just weak sulfuric acid, nothing more. So all you are doing is liberating the sulphate ions, creating sulfuric acid in the process.
But you are right in that no Aluminum in metal form is being plated out, that would take an entirely different process, using a molten electrolyte process.
It's far easier just to drive down to your local auto parts store and purchase new battery acid (sulfuric acid) instead of attempting to use this process to make a weaker, polluted version of sulfuric acid.
When I see "Aluminum Sulphate" I see it as it's component parts, aluminum, sulfuric acid, sodium hydroxide, etc. This makes it easier to understand how it can be broke down again into it's component parts. I know I can get sulfuric acid again, and I know sulfuric acid is used as an electrolyte for batter acid in lead/acid batteries, from that point it's not difficult to understand why these "converted" batteries work. What I have a difficult time understanding instead is how in the world so many amateur chemists get sucked into believing that somehow, a better battery is made by so called "converting" acid/lead to alum/lead. That makes no sense to me. I can understand someone with no background in chemistry at all, but not anyone with a chemistry background.
Scott