Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 89

Biscuits Catylitic Converter Project

| More than Scrap Value
  1. #1
    gustavus started this thread.
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,209
    Thanks
    1,351
    Thanked 917 Times in 424 Posts

    Biscuits Catylitic Converter Project

    Another of my long term projects, trying to maximize my profits from catalytic converters, as you all know I de-can all my catalytic converters then mill the comb and bead into powder.

    My drum is approching the half way mark to being filled, as soon as that compressor motor arrives I have another 75 cats to mill then I'll be sending in my first samples for an assay to see where I stand with this project.

    The type of assay is ICP which costs around $500.00 for 3 elements, platinum, palladium and rhodium so its not likely that I'll be sharing the results from my assays unless someone wants to anti up and share the cost.

    To be reasonable I would consider offering a copy of my assay for a small fee with a non disclosure agreement.

    Once the assay is returned to me, I will give my opinion freely on weather it is worth the effort to de-can and mill your own catalytic converters.

    Edited to add, assays report parts per million - if the assay report showed that you 1 ppm this would indicate that your material contains 1 gram per metric ton.



    ICP-OES Inductively coupled plasma optical emissions spectroscopy is a major technique for elemental analysis.

    The sample to be analyzed, if solid, is normally first dissolved and then mixed with water before being fed into the plasma. Atoms in the plasma emit light (photons) with characteristic wavelengths for each element.

    This light is recorded by one or more optical spectrometers and when calibrated against standards the technique provides a quantitative analysis of the original sample. ICP instruments comprise of various optical spectrometers, nebulizers, spray chambers, ICP torch and RF generators.
    Last edited by gustavus; 05-01-2012 at 11:46 AM.

  2. The Following 4 Users say Thank You for This Post by gustavus:



  3. #2
    SMF Badges of Honor



    Member since
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Jacksonville, NC
    Posts
    4,740
    Thanks
    14,607
    Thanked 5,589 Times in 2,583 Posts
    It will be interesting and informative. Thanks for sharing and thanks for coming back. Mike.
    "Profit begins when you buy NOT when you sell." {quote passed down to me from a wise man}

    Now go beat the copper out of something, Miked

  4. #3
    gustavus started this thread.
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,209
    Thanks
    1,351
    Thanked 917 Times in 424 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by miked View Post
    It will be interesting and informative. Thanks for sharing and thanks for coming back. Mike.
    No problem Mike, I'm not going to be making any friends among the catalytic buyers.

    Last night while loading up the ball mill had a comb too large to fit through the charge door so set the comb on my table saw then gave it a smack with my claw hammer to split it in half. Now the weird part was that observing both ends of the comb they looked perfect but once split open it looked like it had been riddled with termites there was bore holes throughout the comb.

    I mention this in the interest of making it common knowledge that the catalytic buyers are buying blind, although mileage and age will play into what is left behind in the comb for values to be refined out. You need that assay to know where you stand.

    I'm not going to get into a rant on buying and selling it's a free market and people are free to do as they wish its just that I have chosen a different route hopefully we all gain more knowledge from this project giving us choices in how we deal with our cats in the future.

    The bare minimum required to send into the refinery is 500 kg, I will elaborate more on this later as to who we should be using not only from my own personal experience but from others I have contact with.

    Later I will edit this post with a picture of the ball mill so that everything related to this project is kept in one thread.
    Last edited by gustavus; 05-01-2012 at 11:40 AM.

  5. The Following 6 Users say Thank You for This Post by gustavus:


  6. #4
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Nov 2011
    Location
    boise, ID
    Posts
    1,612
    Thanks
    468
    Thanked 1,456 Times in 667 Posts
    Thanks for the update. I wonder if the cat buyers already figure that in when they set pricing on cats?

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to freonjoe for This Post:


  8. #5
    gustavus started this thread.
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,209
    Thanks
    1,351
    Thanked 917 Times in 424 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by freonjoe View Post
    Thanks for the update. I wonder if the cat buyers already figure that in when they set pricing on cats?
    The problem is there is no possible way to determine how badly the comb is degraded poking a stick into the end only tells the buyer the cat has a comb inside. but not the condition the comb I split last night was unforeseeable.

    This catalytic business is one big smoke screen then the refinery keeps the little guy out by imposing large lot sizes to get in the door creating middle men who purchase cats then send out to a de-canner who then sends out to the refinery. I can now see the merits of starting up a de-canning operation but it would take deep pockets to pull it off.

    Because of the damage and natural degrading that occurs to a catalytic over its lifetime I'm not making any attempt to keep a body count or distinguish one cat from another it's only the finished weight I concern myself with.

    Besides I'm finding that there are many different car models using the same type and style of catalytic converter, making identification even more problematic. I'll leave this to the buyers so that they can BS the public.

    If the car is not equipped with a pre cat the rhodium is in the biscuit closest to the engine so I'm assuming pre cats would have the rhodium, current market value for this metal is weak which would account for the low buy value on pre cats.
    Last edited by gustavus; 05-01-2012 at 12:59 PM.

  9. The Following 2 Users say Thank You for This Post by gustavus:


  10. #6
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Nov 2011
    Location
    boise, ID
    Posts
    1,612
    Thanks
    468
    Thanked 1,456 Times in 667 Posts
    Are you looking at doing your own refining down the road?

  11. #7
    EcoSafe's Avatar
    SMF Badges of Honor



    Member since
    May 2011
    Posts
    3,707
    Thanks
    3,713
    Thanked 6,796 Times in 1,951 Posts
    your assay will be useless to any one else in my opinion, due to the difference of PM content in different converters, each shipment will require a separate assay.

    I strongly recommend, unless some one knows exactly what they are doing to sell the WHOLE converter to a legitimate converter buyer. EXAMPLE Jaguar converter whole $225, break out the biscuit and it is worth $12 or so an LB. reason is because the whole converter and there for the PM contend can be identified. a bunch of ceramic dust cant with out an expensive Assay. just sayin.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to EcoSafe for This Post:


  13. #8
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Henderson nc
    Posts
    246
    Thanks
    8
    Thanked 66 Times in 46 Posts
    All that stuff just makes my brain tired!
    If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, Id spend six sharpening my axe.

    Abraham Lincoln
    http://junkcarbuyersraleighnc.com

  14. #9
    gustavus started this thread.
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,209
    Thanks
    1,351
    Thanked 917 Times in 424 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by freonjoe View Post
    Are you looking at doing your own refining down the road?
    I had the grand idea that I would refine my own and have 200 lbs under development, I'm at the filtering stage. About half has been filtered I do have some PGM black and expect more which still leaves me at a disadvantage when its time to sell.

    You need one hellish amount of platinum group metals before Johnson Matthey or any other notable buyer will even shake hands with you, the refinery is able to pool their metals from their various customers to meet this criteria which gives them the hand shake.

  15. #10
    gustavus started this thread.
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,209
    Thanks
    1,351
    Thanked 917 Times in 424 Posts
    Pile of converters waiting to be processed, no Jaguar or Mercedes.

    On the scale assay sample which will be mailed out this afternoon for. Once the results are known I will post them here.



    Last edited by gustavus; 05-02-2012 at 11:29 AM.

  16. The Following 3 Users say Thank You for This Post by gustavus:


  17. #11
    gustavus started this thread.
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,209
    Thanks
    1,351
    Thanked 917 Times in 424 Posts
    A shocking revelation from the refiner I was planning to use they are not at the top of the food chain although their web-page makes claims that they process in house.

    Check out the deception for yourself Company Profile http://www.pmrrefiner.com/Corporate-Profile.php

    In previous telephone calls I've always spoken with the top dog, he was not available this afternoon which allowed me to get some straight answers from one of the employees. The question asked was if they were using wet chemistry or the state of the art Plasma Arc Furnace.

    Here is what I was told, PMR receives the cats then decans them to mill the comb into a fine powder which gets shipped out a mining company that owns a P.A.F. when the guy realized that he had said to much when I asked if this material was being shipped to Sudbury Ontario. He tried to wriggle out by saying they had booked time on the furnace without further comment.

    International Nickel has a large nickel mine located in Northern Manitoba from the ore mined they get a certain amount of platinum group metals which they ship to their processing plant in Sudbury. I was already working this lead but got some woman who had only recently started her employment with the company and she told me that the cat material was not suitable to mix with the feed stock and that it was shipped to the UK. Well it looks like I've come full circle after that conversation I had with PMR.

    When time permits I will l do more follow up on the Sudbury plant.

    I also asked the average value per pound for mixed domestic cats, PMR guy said between $20.00 / $40.00 lb, I made some notes of today's spot prices then when my assay results some back we'll know how far off base he was. With the safe spread he gave himself I'm hoping that my material assays $40.00 lb o better. as there are no exotic converters in that lot.

    What I really need to know is what mesh size to grind my cat combs down to making them suitable feedstock for the plasma arc furnace.
    Last edited by gustavus; 05-03-2012 at 02:40 PM.

  18. The Following 3 Users say Thank You for This Post by gustavus:


  19. #12
    SMF Badges of Honor



    Member since
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Jacksonville, NC
    Posts
    4,740
    Thanks
    14,607
    Thanked 5,589 Times in 2,583 Posts
    Wow, it seems from your writtings here the cat market is barrel of snakes and secrets. Mike.

  20. #13
    gustavus started this thread.
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,209
    Thanks
    1,351
    Thanked 917 Times in 424 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by miked View Post
    Wow, it seems from your writings here the cat market is barrel of snakes and secrets. Mike.
    When that assay report comes back I'm going to share the results, it will give us an idea how much snake oil there is in the de-canning end of the business, we won't get our feathers ruffled over street level buyers. If I had deep pockets this is where I would have started with this project.

    Already I have formed some ideas, you all know that I'm 62 years old with back and neck injuries, no pension plan and no savings to speak of my checking account 1rst of this month had a $7.00 balance and had my first check ever $17.00 bounce. Idiot posted the check 30 days after I had issued it.

    Once I get this first batch refined win or loose I gave it my best shot, if its a winner I have some plans in the making, being in the scrap business as long as I have made some good contacts. If I'm able to show them better returns on their catalytics I'm thinking that I may set up as a de-canner, miller and outsource the assay. then forward the milled cats to a refiner.

    You may recall from another post this crane truck is only a two year project, last trip it goes into the scrap heap, it will have served its purpose.

    This afternoon did come across a refiner with a plasma arc furnace that offers toll refining and pool accounts, we're getting closer to the top of the food chain.
    Last edited by gustavus; 05-03-2012 at 02:38 PM.

  21. The Following 2 Users say Thank You for This Post by gustavus:


  22. #14
    hobo finds's Avatar
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Nov 2010
    Location
    tucson, az
    Posts
    4,615
    Thanks
    5,829
    Thanked 5,707 Times in 2,469 Posts
    I can't scrap a car without a cat on it around here!

  23. #15
    Mechanic688's Avatar
    SMF Badges of Honor



    Member since
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Warsaw , Ind. In the heart of the lakes, and down the street from the hotel where Al Capone stayed.
    Posts
    9,577
    Thanks
    11,247
    Thanked 10,701 Times in 4,722 Posts
    You may recall from another psot this crane truck is only a two year poject, last trip it goes into the scrap heap, it will have served its purpose.
    If it's still running at that time you might be able to sell it to another scrapper starting out, you'd get way more than scrap value from it. It doesn't matter what you paid for it, it's what it's worth and what it can generate for a weekly income.
    P & M Recycling - Specializing in E-Waste Recycling.
    If you enjoy your freedom, thank a vet.

  24. #16
    gustavus started this thread.
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,209
    Thanks
    1,351
    Thanked 917 Times in 424 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by hobo finds View Post
    I can't scrap a car without a cat on it around here!
    Hobo am I reading into this that you have trouble finding a scrap car with the cat still on it.

    Part of the plan for this year once I have most of the cars available with in reasonable distance from me is to park the crane truck then re-license the dodge pick up and go north- where ever that maybe.

    I figure that the cars local to me should net me around 10 / 15 thousand cash, this will not buy me many cats but get me closer to my goal then I can max out my credit card to finish up. I've managed to keep the card with a zero balance. It's a gamble I would take if the payout from refining is timely.
    Last edited by gustavus; 05-03-2012 at 02:35 PM.

  25. The Following User Says Thank You to gustavus for This Post:


  26. #17
    gustavus started this thread.
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,209
    Thanks
    1,351
    Thanked 917 Times in 424 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Mechanic688 View Post
    If it's still running at that time you might be able to sell it to another scrapper starting out, you'd get way more than scrap value from it. It doesn't matter what you paid for it, it's what it's worth and what it can generate for a weekly income.
    This may sound selfish, but why would I invite competition into the cat business that I'm struggling to get into. The truck is an 1985 has some small rust holes in the floor, the fuel tank straps on one tank were completely rusted away I made new ones from stainless steel.

    The odometer more than likely been around several times, during this last safety inspection one wheel seal was leaking when I replaced it I had noticed that the brake drum had heat cracks and the shoes are near minimum and will soon need replacing.

    As it is now I have the wet road valve open, what this does is keep the front brakes from coming full on during a braking application.

    The front brake limiter is a great feature when your on mud, snow, ice or wet roads, anyhow to conserve on what is left of the front brake shoes and maybe get another year out of the truck this is how I have chosen to operate the front brakes. Since I'm in the country wth very little traffic and a likelihood of having to do an emergency stop this works for me.

    Even though the crane would still be operational it will also have had its 30th birthday.
    Last edited by gustavus; 05-03-2012 at 02:35 PM.

  27. #18
    gustavus started this thread.
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,209
    Thanks
    1,351
    Thanked 917 Times in 424 Posts
    This is the top of the food chain refiner, some interesting tid bits from their website.

    It's obvious that the feedstock is milled before entering the plasma arc furnace. When I decided to get into this project knew that catylitic comb and beads were to be treated as ore same as if you mined it from the earth. Only difference is that cats are high grade ore recovered from urban mining.



    The catalyst materials are fed into the plasma arc furnace. A 10,000 degree centigrade electric flame moves across the surface of the catalyst heating them to temperatures that range from 1,500 to 1,600 degrees centigrade. The plasma arc is moved above the molten bath to distribute the tremendously intense heat over the entire surface, keeping the bath fluid and providing a stirring effect, causing the precious metals to collect together and settle to the bottom of the furnace in a layer of molten metal.

    The slag flows continuously from the furnace, is cooled, crushed and sold to steel manufacturers for use in manufacturing high grade steel. The precious metal alloy is tapped, cooled, milled, then refined into Platinum, Palladium and Rhodium.
    Last edited by gustavus; 05-03-2012 at 02:34 PM.

  28. The Following User Says Thank You to gustavus for This Post:


  29. #19
    gustavus started this thread.
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    1,209
    Thanks
    1,351
    Thanked 917 Times in 424 Posts
    Came across this bit of information while the mutt was out having a wiz. 400 series stainless. This would explain why cutting off catalytics with the sawzall plays havoc with the blades.

    In the beginning I was using 14 tpi blades but have now switched over to 10 tpi with faster cutting with longer blade life.

    409 is a titanium stabilized ferritic stainless steel. Although regarded as a general-purpose chromium stainless steel the primary application for Grade 409 is automotive exhaust systems.

    Corrosion Resistance
    Grade 409 resists atmospheric and exhaust gas corrosion. A light surface rust will form in most atmospheres; this rust retards further corrosion but makes the surface undesirable for decorative applications. The corrosion resistance is about the same as that of 3CR12 and the 12% chromium martensitic grades such as 410, and inferior to the 17% chromium grade 430.

    Heat Resistance
    Generally 409 is classified as resistant to scaling in intermittent service up to 815C and up to 675C in continuous service, but these temperatures are dependent upon the exact service environment.

    Typical applications include:

    • Automotive exhaust systems

    • Catalytic converters

    • Mufflers
    Last edited by gustavus; 05-03-2012 at 02:34 PM.

  30. The Following 5 Users say Thank You for This Post by gustavus:


  31. #20
    SMF Badges of Honor


    Member since
    Nov 2011
    Location
    boise, ID
    Posts
    1,612
    Thanks
    468
    Thanked 1,456 Times in 667 Posts
    Gus, I was wondering why you weren't using your plasma cutter to de-can the cats, forgot your air compressor was down.

  32. The Following User Says Thank You to freonjoe for This Post:



  33. Similar threads on the Scrap Metal Forum

    1. Maximizing on your scrap catylitic converters
      By gustavus in forum Dismantling, Breaking Down & Maximizing Scrap
      Replies: 8
      Last Post: 12-05-2012, 10:15 AM
    2. My next project
      By Julie in forum A Day in the Life of a Scrapper
      Replies: 9
      Last Post: 08-27-2012, 06:56 PM
    3. My next project
      By thirsty in forum Off Topic Discussions
      Replies: 1
      Last Post: 07-03-2012, 12:38 PM
    4. Replies: 3
      Last Post: 05-18-2012, 09:45 PM
    5. My New Project
      By imyourgirl in forum Off Topic Discussions
      Replies: 14
      Last Post: 01-04-2012, 08:57 PM

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

 
Browse the Most Recent Threads
On SMF In THIS CATEGORY.





OR

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

The Scrap Metal Forum

    The Scrap Metal Forum is the #1 scrap metal recycling community in the world. Here we talk about the scrap metal business, making money, where we connect with other scrappers, scrap yards and more.

SMF on Facebook and Twitter

Twitter Facebook