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    t00nces2 started this thread.
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    Property Rights

    I have lived in my home for 25 years and a gentleman down the street has lived here all that time and longer. He has been a horder/scrapper the whole time I have lived here. I am on a first name basis and am friendly with the man.



    The area has grown over that time to a point where what was one a fairly rural area hes become more suburban. Someone has complained to the point where the county is coming after the man with large fines in an attempt to drive him off his property ($250K... this is going by what he has told me just today, and I really have no reason to doubt what he says. His yard is a mess, but it is HIS yard). He asked me to write him a note to bring to court as a note to what I think of his character and my opinion of the issue as he presented it.

    This is the note I wrote:

    To Whom It May Concern,

    I understand there have been complaints regarding a The Guy, His Address. Mr. Ward has never been a bother to me or been in any way detrimental to our neighborhood in any way I am aware of. I have peacefully existed with Mr. Ward for 25 years and I do not believe he should be harassed for living his life in a way others may object to so long as no one is harmed, and no one has been harmed that I am aware of.

    This is the United States of America and he has the Constitutional freedom to pursue happiness within the boundaries of his property. He has been here as long as I have, and I know that with very few exceptions, anyone who complains moved in fully aware of the presence of Mr. Ward.

    My name, address..


    I am interested in your thought on the letter and any changes I might consider before printing it and leaving it for him to use to help his case

    Thank you.

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    Scrappah's Avatar
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    I've seen this before. You get new people moving in and they want to remake the neighborhood (or community) in their own image. It's pretty selfish and self involved to think that your neighbor ought to change just to suit you. Those kind of newcomers are troublemakers. When you tell em' to piss off they get on the phone and try to bring the government down on your head.

    Whether that plays or not depends on the values in your community. I've heard that you can be fined for not mowing your lawn in parts of Florida. If that kind of thing is the accepted community value in your area then it's not looking so good for your neighbor the hoarder.

    It's a hard call. We had a similar thing here recently. There's an old curmudgeon with a rundown property down in the center of town. He's okay to get along with as long as you treat him with dignity and respect. If you're one of those people who looks down on him then he will go out of his way to make things difficult. He's made more than a few enemies over the years.

    In a way, he's kind of the onion in the petunia patch now. It used to be that the downtown area was a real honest to gosh Maine fishing village filled with real down to earth people who worked hard for a living. They didn't give a darn if a place was run down because their own properties weren't that special either. Things have changed. Millions of dollars of outside money have flowed into that area in the way of property development. Those people ... the ones pumping money into the community ... they have their rights too. Old Mr Cranky just flips them the bird.

    Eventually the community leaders reached a compromise. They hired a landscape architect who did some very tasteful work that blocks the view of Mr. Cranky's property so that it's not such an eyesore to his neighbors. He calls it the hate fence. Others call it an improvement. Guess it all depends on your outlook.

    What's the deal with the 250 k. in fines T ?

    See it's one thing to do your own thing on your own property. It's another thing to cause harm to your neighbors. Is there pollution running off from all of the hoarded stuff onto his neighbor's property or is it just an eyesore ?

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    t00nces2 started this thread.
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    I don't think so. This was all out in the sticks when I got here and there is no HOA (One of the reasons I bought here). He just has a property full of junk, literally a junk yard. I would love to haul trailers of junk out to the scrap yard. He has had spillover on the road in the past but has cleaned it up since he has been being hassled. The cars and trailers have been a pain in the ass, but it has been over the past few years as traffic has increased that it has been a bit confining on the small (once rural) road. I told him to keep the crap off the side of the road to help keep him from being a spectacle that draws attention. He said he would. As far as an eyesore, he has a fence that is a bit tired, but it still hides the yard if you don't look too hard. It just pisses me off that the poor guy can't do what he wants on his own property.

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    He may have a "grand fathered" leg to stand on but I would be surprised. He needs to hire a lawyer now.

    In my county builders have been putting up small subdivisions miles out of town with no reguard for the neighbors already there. Sooner or later the wind changes direction and the smell of hog farm shows up. The hog farm has been there for decades but the new owners in the the subdivision don't see why their rights aren't more important that the farmer.

    I'm with you on never buying in a HOA enviroment but with government types and code enforcement folks determined to do their job I don't hold but hope for continued freedom. I am concerned about uninformed government types that my ham radio antennas are allowed but might have to hire a lawyer to defind my regulatory rights to put antennas. 73, Mike
    "Profit begins when you buy NOT when you sell." {quote passed down to me from a wise man}

    Now go beat the copper out of something, Miked

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    I pretty much agree. What you do on your own property is your own business. The thing is .... it doesn't give you the right to harm others.

    IDK ...i think i would try to look at both sides and weigh it fairly. I'm not there but i'm wondering of he's being selfish and inconsiderate to his neighbors. I would look at the nature of the charges against him and see if there's anything to it.

    You know how it is with junk vehicles. The brake lines, fuel tanks, batteries,and cooling systems all eventually fail and dump the contents on the ground. That gets into the water table and pollutes the neighbor's well. The water table is pretty close to the surface in your part of the country.

    It's a trend though .... today the tight arses are hassling the neighbor. A year from now it might be you. Better to stop it in it's tracks before it gets to be a problem.

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    t00nces2 started this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrappah View Post
    I pretty much agree. What you do on your own property is your own business. The thing is .... it doesn't give you the right to harm others.

    IDK ...i think i would try to look at both sides and weigh it fairly. I'm not there but i'm wondering of he's being selfish and inconsiderate to his neighbors. I would look at the nature of the charges against him and see if there's anything to it.

    You know how it is with junk vehicles. The brake lines, fuel tanks, batteries,and cooling systems all eventually fail and dump the contents on the ground. That gets into the water table and pollutes the neighbor's well. The water table is pretty close to the surface in your part of the country.

    It's a trend though .... today the tight arses are hassling the neighbor. A year from now it might be you. Better to stop it in it's tracks before it gets to be a problem.
    He tells me the cars in the yard are tagged. My neighbor can drive a tagged clunker that he has to add a quart to drive every day, so I don't really see how they can cherry pick his cars for pollution. He is not doing anything other than collecting scrap on his yard, and truth be told, it is not like he is bringing in a ton of stuff that you would consider trouble. Stoves, DW's, MW's, sinks, fridges, AC's, just scrapper stuff.

    That said, I was hoping for input on the note. Good idea? Bad idea? Too harsh? What do you think? If this guy lived down the street from you, would you stand up to give him a hand? It would seem to me that every one of you could run into the same kind of trouble.. I could. My place is the same as his. I have a corner lot.. Check. I have a fence... Check. I have a shop... Check. I can accumulate a load of scrap I keep in the yard... Check. Apart from my road being a little less traveled and the BS on the road, we are both in a similar situation.

    If there is something glaring there I should not put in or something I left out, please feel free to let me know.

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    Many times this is not a HOA or similar thing...it is a ZONING issue. I am a real estate broker in Georgia. All places are zoned for different allowances. In this case, the "junk" can be considered a business possibly (especially if he run his business out of the home). Depending on his zoning, he may not even be ABLE to run that sort of business out of his property.

    YES, a lawyer is the way to go, HOWEVER, he just needs to look at the county zoning specification for his property and what is allowed and not allowed. IF the city CHANGED it recently (let's say), did it go to the council meeting and voice his opinion? This is where a lawyer can get many things changed back or grandfathered (just might cost $$$$). All of these things ARE there to protect not only YOUR but the other property values around you...that is a FAIR and RIGHT thing. You can't do whatever you want...there are some laws and zoning in place. IE industrial business tend to get lumped together and not have residential houses in the middle of it...doesn't make sense and can be a danger to both sides of that.

    Again, the research will be important (all of this is public record and easily obtainable...for FREE either online or at the place of records for the county). Get that info and THEN talk to a lawyer to see if you have a leg to stand on.
    PROFIT is made when you BUY/ACQUIRE NOT when you sell

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    It's a good note T. Clear and to the point. What else could you say ?

    The idea that he should get a lawyer is a good one.

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    Property Rights

    If the yard is as full of junk as you say there could very easily be a rodent problem. Rodents are nasty, and carry all kinds of diseases which can affect humans. One cannot be "grandfathered in" when the health and well being of the public is at risk. In addition, we have yet to recognize the fact that over a course of years, many of the junk cars he has sitting on his property break down structurally, and there is a risk of oil, gasoline, and other fluids leaking and being spread to adjacent properties. You even called this gentleman a hoarder, and being a hoarder isn't exactly a positive concept.

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  15. #10
    t00nces2 started this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxor62 View Post
    If the yard is as full of junk as you say there could very easily be a rodent problem. Rodents are nasty, and carry all kinds of diseases which can affect humans. One cannot be "grandfathered in" when the health and well being of the public is at risk. In addition, we have yet to recognize the fact that over a course of years, many of the junk cars he has sitting on his property break down structurally, and there is a risk of oil, gasoline, and other fluids leaking and being spread to adjacent properties. You even called this gentleman a hoarder, and being a hoarder isn't exactly a positive concept.
    The amount of fluids from one car are inconsequential. There are gallons of fluids leaked on to every road... On every road that get washed into the soil every time it rains... Day after day after day after day. Over ten years, the amount of fluids that would leach into the soil from one car would be the equivalent of a mouse fart in a hurricane. Common sense is not too common anymore, so I'm not convinced this poor guy isn't going to get screwed by the county.
    Last edited by t00nces2; 07-17-2016 at 07:55 PM.

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    Your note is a good one t00nces, well written and precise. I think what would help is more is if more people would/could write one. Maybe get more neighbors on board? The more character witnesses he has the better. Best of luck in winning this one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by t00nces2 View Post


    The amount of fluids from one car are inconsequential. There are gallons of fluids leaked on to every road... On every road that get washed into the soil every time it rains... Day after day after day after day. Over ten years, the amount of fluids that would leach into the soil from one car would be the equivalent of a mouse fart in a hurricane. Common sense is not too common anymore, so I'm not convinced this poor guy isn't going to get screwed by the county.
    A smart man wouldn't take on a fight that he knows he's gonna lose. The common sense thing would be to negotiate and reach compromises.

    ie: Junk cars.

    Drain the fluids and pull the battery if they're not being used. Simple solution to the problem.

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    The note is proper.

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    Your note is a good one. If the man was in the service I would add that as it would show that the man not only has certain rights , but that he served to protect those rights for all of us.
    If it wasn't for the $ in $crap, it would just be.....

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  21. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by t00nces2 View Post
    I have lived in my home for 25 years and a gentleman down the street has lived here all that time and longer. He has been a horder/scrapper the whole time I have lived here. I am on a first name basis and am friendly with the man.

    The area has grown over that time to a point where what was one a fairly rural area hes become more suburban. Someone has complained to the point where the county is coming after the man with large fines in an attempt to drive him off his property ($250K... this is going by what he has told me just today, and I really have no reason to doubt what he says. His yard is a mess, but it is HIS yard). He asked me to write him a note to bring to court as a note to what I think of his character and my opinion of the issue as he presented it.

    This is the note I wrote:

    To Whom It May Concern,

    I understand there have been complaints regarding a The Guy, His Address. Mr. Ward has never been a bother to me or been in any way
    detrimental to our neighborhood in any way I am aware of. I have peacefully existed with Mr. Ward for 25 years and I do not believe he should be harassed for living his life in a way others may object to so long as no one is harmed, and no one has been harmed that I am aware of.

    This is the United States of America and he has the Constitutional freedom to pursue happiness within the boundaries of his property. He has been here as long as I have, and I know that with very few exceptions, anyone who complains moved in fully aware of the presence of Mr. Ward.

    My name, address..


    I am interested in your thought on the letter and any changes I might consider before printing it and leaving it for him to use to help his case

    Thank you.
    Your neighbors messy yard is detrimental to surrounding property values, if you want to support your friend pay the $25.00 to have a lawyer write your character reference letter.

    I agree that his property status should fall under the grandfather clause.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandfather_clause

    A grandfather clause (or grandfather policy) is a provision in which an old rule continues to apply to some existing situations while a new rule will apply to all future cases. Those exempt from the new rule are said to have grandfather rights or acquired rights. Frequently, the exemption is limited; it may extend for a set time, or it may be lost under certain circumstances. For example, a "grandfathered power plant" might be exempt from new, more restrictive pollution laws, but the exception may be revoked and the new rules would apply if the plant were expanded. Often, such a provision is used as a compromise or out of practicality, to allow new rules to be enacted without upsetting a well-established logistical or political situation. This extends the idea of a rule not being retroactively applied.
    The term originated in late nineteenth-century legislation and constitutional amendments passed by a number of U.S. Southern states, which created new requirements for literacy tests, payment of poll taxes, and/or residency and property restrictions to register to vote. States in some cases exempted those whose ancestors (grandfathers) had the right to vote before the Civil War, or as of a particular date, from such requirements. The intent and effect of such rules was to prevent poor and illiterate African-American former slaves and their descendants from voting, but without denying poor and illiterate whites the right to vote. Although these original grandfather clauses were eventually ruled unconstitutional, the terms grandfather clause and grandfather have been adapted to other uses.
    The art of survival is a story that never ends. American Hustle.

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  23. #16
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    I know of a fellow who had a yard full of scrap machinery, the municipality sent notices to clean up the mess which eventually led to a municiple crew coming in to remove the iron. The fellow sued the municiplaity and won his case which took two years tio reach the courts by this time the municiplaity had disposed of the equipment, they had to reimburse the man not only for the missing equipment but also for inconvienace and stress and legal fees.

    It's a well known fact any man who represents himslf in court has a fool for a lawyer.

    Officialdom does not like to loose, what I saying here is should you neighbor win his case the people who run the county will reach into the hat and pull out another rabbit like bring in the health authoritys who have unlimited powers, then perhaps even the tax authoritys who may rule the man has been operating a business all these years then demand records on purchases and sales of said junk.

    Your neighbor is no longer flying under the radar!


    This is going to end up a lossing propsition for your neighbor, recently two home owners here in my province who were packrats had health authoritys condem their premisises.

    Here is a news story on one of the victoms.

    St. Boniface house condemned because of hoarding - Manitoba - CBC News

    Your charecter letter is written in good spirit but in my humble opinion not worth the paper its written on and this is why I suggested that you contact a lawyer to write the letter, the lawyer may have injected into the letter refereance to the rule of law in accordance to the grandfather clause along with citing previous cases.

    Since the letter is going to be reviewed by a judge, the format and tone of the statement must be professional. Make sure you have the judge's name and title correct. Be honest in your statement. Being dishonest damages your reputation and does not help the defendant.
    Introduce yourself by name and profession. Tell the judge who you are writing the letter for. Let the judge know that you are aware of the charges against the defendant. When you know the charges against the defendant it sends the judge a message that you do know what the defendant has done but that you are still willing to write positively about the defendant.
    Next, discuss how you met the defendant and how long you have known him or her. Doing so establishes your relationship with the defendant. Provide specific examples of good deeds the defendant has done. If the defendant has done volunteer work in the community, provide names of the organizations and the types of activities he or she participated in.
    If the defendant is a good provider for the family or is devoted to his or her family, bring that up and provide examples.

    Again, be truthful. Has the defendant given up work or education to take care of a sick relative? Does the defendant refuse to go out drinking with his or her friends or coworkers to spend more time with his or her family?


    Conclude by saying how the defendant's incarceration will negatively affect their present, their future, their job, and their life. Be specific. Explain how the defendant's incarceration will affect his or her family and employer. Explain how the defendant has learned from their mistake, what steps they have taken to change, and that you believe they will not make the same mistake again.


    Include a telephone number in your conclusion so that the judge may reach you with any questions. Doing so shows that you are serious about helping the defendant and that you mean what you say.



    Law Dictionary: Best Way to Write a Good Character Witness Statement
    Last edited by alloy2; 07-19-2016 at 12:04 PM.

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  25. #17
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    Here's what the move to remove looks like from the closed doors of the municiple chambers.

    Item No. R274 - Clean-up of Property Under the- 16683 - 50 Avenue Highways Scenic Improvement Act-

    Mr. Willis Mastin's Property (15683-05000)The Municipal Manager submitted a report from the Chief Inspector concerning the clean-up of property under the Highways Scenic Improvement Act - Mr. Willis Mastin's property, locatedat 16683 - 50 Avenue.

    The Chief Inspector recommended that Council authorize the Permits and Licenses Department to:

    1. Notify those registered owners of vehicles removed from Mr. Mastin's property whom we are able to identify of the impounding of their vehicles.

    2. Dispose of the remaining vehicles, parts and machinery where registered owners cannot be found.


    RES.NO.J-576 Ca r r i ed

    From line 1. you can see that the last registered owner still had the law on their side and had to be legally notified of the impound, which in my oppinion was illeagle as the vehciles were on the property legally.

    I'm curious on what legal grounds these vehicles were impounded, a property owner may have three unlicenced vehicles on the property provided thye're covered most guys just tarp them. Which abids by the law but actually looks worse than leaving the car or truck open to sight.

    Crazy world we live in.
    Last edited by alloy2; 07-19-2016 at 01:26 PM.

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  27. #18
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    I understand we all do not like the government telling us what to do but remember your rights in this case may be causing value problems for others , good scrappers keep it clean.
    Old dogs care about you even when you make mistakes;
    God bless little children while they're still too young to hate

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  29. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by submarinepainter View Post
    I understand we all do not like the government telling us what to do but remember your rights in this case may be causing value problems for others , good scrappers keep it clean.
    EXACTLY...and if you are going to DO a business like this...GET A PLACE that is properly zoned for it. You might not think it is an issue (because if you live there and own it, well you don't mind it), but the rest of the area is affected by your decision. I know there is plenty of be said for individual rights, HOWEVER, your rights end where my nose begins (the sentiment is that your rights and my rights are equal...you can't affect my right detrimentally).

    My point is, we don't have the full scope of all the nuances of the situation. Several people here have certainly given some great advice and brought up many good points. In the end, the legal system will decide....and sometimes that means to the deteriment of some individual's right. You have to comply with the rules set up and in general, eyesores are that and they detrimentally affects others property values (that is a FACT).

    I hope he takes the advice for a lawyer and that is gets settled amicably before he is fined into the ground.

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  31. #20
    t00nces2 started this thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by webuyselltradestuff View Post
    EXACTLY...and if you are going to DO a business like this...GET A PLACE that is properly zoned for it. You might not think it is an issue (because if you live there and own it, well you don't mind it), but the rest of the area is affected by your decision. I know there is plenty of be said for individual rights, HOWEVER, your rights end where my nose begins (the sentiment is that your rights and my rights are equal...you can't affect my right detrimentally).

    My point is, we don't have the full scope of all the nuances of the situation. Several people here have certainly given some great advice and brought up many good points. In the end, the legal system will decide....and sometimes that means to the deteriment of some individual's right. You have to comply with the rules set up and in general, eyesores are that and they detrimentally affects others property values (that is a FACT).

    I hope he takes the advice for a lawyer and that is gets settled amicably before he is fined into the ground.
    They are swinging and hitting his nose. He is contained to his property. His bull gored no cow.


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