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Without Co-Ops Australias primary production industries (agriculture, livestock, fishing) would have failed many years ago, and we would be over run with chinese imports..
I would be part of one, if one was in exsistance here in Australia, but have neither the time, or head space to build one.
I applaude your thinking Korrosive, and hope that through this thread, the right kind of members will contact you and make a go of it.
Better to try and fail, than to never try at all!!
I understand the whole teamwork thing, been building large things for over two decades and organizing the people that are involved in the projects...also a USA Hockey level 5 coach so I've been thoroughly educated on how to motivate.
Sure more get's done when you cooperate, that goes without saying. But even more gets done when there is a clear understanding of the what the final outcome or goal is, you then assemble the team to complete the job and help each person to understand what their role is. Then the reality of it is, some team members are more valuable then others so they get a bigger slice.
"Then the reality of it is, some team members are more valuable then others so they get a bigger slice."
Reminds me of the Pigs mantra in Orwell's Animal Farm--"all creatures are created equal but some are more equal than others." ;)
And I'm unsure of the parallels. I'm not advocating that everyone would gather metal and average loads, so no one got paid any more than anyone else. I'm just trying to shed some cost/benefit on cooperation. think of what scrappers do to squeeze out a couple of pennies, the pissing and fuming, the Nitons dragged out to be sure they're getting best value.
KZ, perhaps you're at the top of the scrapper's food chain and don't want others to exploit your prices, is that the case? I kind of understand the position, except that what I know of cooperation is that it doesn't pay out in every instance, but it wins in the long run. Your comments indicate a concern that others would benefit from you, not that you would benefit from them.
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It's a good point. A co-op would need generally equal partners. If you're bigger than everyone else in a group, you might only help your competitors and realize little or no gain yourself. This goes back to Game Theory: the strategy of always cooperate/never retaliate is a failed strategy.
In the case of your manufacturing biz: my experience is in fishing: I owned the boat. I found the fish. I got paid the most. But woe to me if I forgot the lowly deckhand cutting and gutting, because as mindless/skill-less as that job was, the operation couldn't run without them. No deckhands, no fish. I paid my help well, pulled them out the bars when i had to, took care of them when i had to. I could've replaced them with greenhorns, but greenhorns every month don't make a boat money. The captains i knew who flogged their people, abused their boats, paid flat rates, churned thru help. They won on the big days, but in the long run they never made a serious go of things. The other thing is my crew trusted me, and i trusted them. That alone kept us afloat literally and figuratively.
Not sure how. I'm trying to challenge ideas, not individuals.
If you mean my disputing statements, well, you know the old cliche: you gotta break some eggs if you want to make an omelet.
Discussions without dispute aren't exactly...enlightening.
I think it was Feynman who said " when there's two people in agreement, one of them is irrelevant." ;)
I'm very impressed with your thinking korrosive. But we're all speaking in theoretical terms within the boundaries of our own experience. Only when your ideas are tried in the real world will we have the "proof of the pudding".
The main problem I see, speaking from my own experience, is that this really isn't feasible internationally (the scope of this forum) or nationally. It has to be implemented on a local level... within a 100 miles or less.
But the concept is transportable to all locales.
So I see the challenge as being creating the basic concept, addressing the problems that will arise in the course of implementing the concept, and making a knowledge base available to those who want to implement the concept in their particular location.
I don't think it's a matter of "herding" cats. I think it's more a matter of cats realizing it's in their best interest to cooperate. Not only is there leverage in larger quantities but there's value in a broader range of knowledge --something this forum makes abundantly clear. Scrap yards get better prices than we do because they deal in larger quantities and they have a direct line to better markets.
Isn't what we're talking about, essentially, a scrap yard by, for, and of the scrappers? Rather than one based on profit for a small circle of people? Call it what you will but wouldn't you rather get more profit from your sweat and give less of it to someone who simply takes what you have to sell and sells it to the highest bidder?
Excellent topic and there are some very intelligent folks chiming in!!! Not that anyone needs my approval, but just wanted to give props to everyone on here. I feel like I am at a brain-storming session, and I am the least intelligent of the bunch. Thanks for making me feel stupid. Just kidding.
America scrap metal industry has a reputaion of being led by the Mafia or mobsters amongst other countries. When I first started picking my bosses brain on info, he used a word in Chinese I didnt understand to describe the sellers of metal in America. I used a pocket translator and it came up as "mobster".
Now I know that this is a broad generalization, maybe based on watching too much TV, but this is not an isolated incident or is it a treatise on how the scrap metal industry is ruled. It is the perception, and maybe not reality.
Labor unions can be good or bad. They always have been. Firstly, Labor Unions were organized to protect the worker from deplorable conditions from their employers. Then unions became powerful and exploited and strong-armed the employers like a mobster would his own community and people.
The same questions and concerns about ideas of a Co-op in recycled metal have some of the same same concerns that all of America is having with the distribution of wealth (shared) and how it will be governed ( more important people that others). It is concerning to me as well.
But let's not forget that Korrosive's motivation for throwing out the idea of a Co-op has good intentions. How to make more money for the small business scrapper by professionalizing the occupation and group by raising the quality of lfe. The concept of the Co-op is secondary.
I agree with korrosive here, Kris Kringle. I think you're missing the point of the thread.
korrosive, jeez, Feynman doesn't carry much weight here. Obviously you've read a book or two between bouts of fish wrangling :)
Thanks for the input ChinaRedneck.
I grew up in central Illinois. And believe me, farmers are a very independent lot, like scrappers. I grew up during a time when a farmer's cooperative was being created in our community. It wasn't an easy sell. There was a lot of opposition. But, ultimately, it was seen as a boon.
And then there's the concept of cooperatives cooperating with each other.
Works in Agriculture.Quote:
Originally Posted by smajor
Smajor and chinaredneck good two cents.
Agreed, its all about where the rubber meets the road and that it's a concept best introduced locally. With local chapters operating, there could be an effort to link into regional or national groupings.
My initial focus would be on the social networking methodology. there is a iphone app http://scrapmetalforum.com/ that provides some networking capability.
The app I am trying to work on would utilize gps and sms capabilities, though i am a lame cocoa programmer. You could broadcast in your area your interest in selling xx metals and message the community for interest. respondents could include weights and varieties. the initiator would be in charge of a dealer call. Prices would email back and times scheduled.
Just to clarify, I'm not at the top of the scrap chain not even in the middle. I'm just a businessman that has seen a lot of people try to succeed in business, trying many different ways with most not making the cut. I could see a co-op working if it was kept to a manageable size and had a place where the members could bring there load to store in the respective piles until ready to turn in. There would have to be some sort of rotation as to who was going to be responsible for pricing and bringing a load in then dispersing the receipts, or assign members so that a group is responsible for a pile. Start out on a small scale and evaluate to see if the goals are being met. It would have to be a pretty close nit group that trust each other with the money and that they are pulling their weight in all areas and most times this is where things go south.
I am curious of Kris Kringles take on this but since we are of the 1% that don't get it according to those getting the press these days, I have a pretty good idea.
MDG I've been following OD's thread just haven't chimed in yet. I like olddudes idea much better then this one because it's more of a partnership type thing so your in or out. This one-hit-wonder above seemed to want more of a socialist type yard/co-op where someone could get max payout for little risk of investing time or money.
I'm not anti-cooperation I'm just anti-socialist. I call that pro-capitalist.
I believe I agree with you KZ and mr dew perhaps get together make a deal, part with profit. Repeat as needed. Mike.
Some of us get a lot better pricing for non-ferrous at the local yards than others. If the local scrappers got together and found out which one got the best price for the specific item and pooled their material, everyone would get a better price. You could do that on a case by case basis. I cash in my scale tickets every week and get paid in cash so it would be easy for me to divy up
FYI: I'm in Ellensburg WA every other week so if any of the WA scrappers want to compare prices, PM me.
I'm sorry, but could someone tell me how working as a co-op is somehow socialist/communist? No one is being forced to sell through a group. You always have the option of selling your materials any way you want. A co-op is by definition capitalism. Supply and Demand. You band together, pool your supply, and demand better pricing. I have a small independent store. Buying on our own, we do not have the power to compete on price with large box store chains. I joined a buying co-op in my industry and together with a few hundred members, we collectively buy more and get as good or better pricing than the chain stores.
As with everything, there are good and bad ways of doing things, but if done right, co-ops can be great business tools. They can be the best way of leveling the playing field for the little guy.
I'm going to lock this thread as it's going down a political slide. If someone would like to start a new coop thread, please keep the political back-and-forth out of it.