PayPal Purchase Protection window will be extended to 180 days starting November 18

**ScrappinRed** · 11-18-2014, 08:09 PM

so THIS is going to be fun...

"Beginning November 18, the latest updates to PayPal’s User Agreement and policies will take effect, with important implications for both buyers and sellers who use PayPal on eBay.

To help bring its purchase protection policies in line with the coverage many buyers receive when they pay for a product or service by credit card, PayPal will now give US buyers up to 180 days from payment to file a PayPal dispute for an item that wasn’t received or was not as described. Please note that this update does not affect the time buyers have to open an eBay Money Back Guarantee request, which will remain 30 days after the latest estimated delivery date."

As if it wasn't fun enough that people could return something for pretty much any reason within 45 days of purchase, NOW they get 180 days to use it, read it, watch it, break it, copy it, or strip it and send it back!!

**matador** · 11-18-2014, 09:24 PM

Some things come with a 6 month warranty. A lot of the computers I sell come with a 12 month warranty.

Some things aren't this way, though. I see no reason for this as a universal policy- expecially for As/Is items. Apparantly, I should buy all untested laptops on eBay, attempt to fix them, and if all fails, demand a refund. What a great system!

eBay must not be too smart. Look at it this way: I want to sell computers for profit, and reinvest the profit to expand. Basic economics 101. Now, though, I'll need to keep "Protection money" in the PayPal account for this policy. That means slower growth, which in turn, means fewer sales.

I agree with allowing claims for unrecieved items. Tracking covers that, though.

Of course, PayPal will invest my money, and do better.

But, what are you to do? Here's what I'll do: Keep the protection money in PayPal to satisfy their racketeering, but withdraw everything else. PayPal is a bank. If they can't invest my money, they can't grow.

My normal bank will love me!

**Mechanic688** · 11-18-2014, 09:40 PM

eBay must not be too smart.

If I'm not mistaken Ebay split off Paypal into it's own "company" with it's own stock. (publicly traded)

**matador** · 11-18-2014, 10:05 PM

That's one of the things I was referring to.

PayPal is a unique thing, but I'd wager that over 95% of eBay transactions use it. Easily. For something that's basically the exclusive payment processor for eBay, it should be in the company's "Umbrella".

Chevrolet and Buick are both within GM. They're separate, but share parts. By splitting it off, if PayPal were to fail, eBay itself would be in a bind. I think PayPal will continue to succeed, and if anything, grow. PayPal was already accepting non-eBay payments, though. By keeping them in the family, eBay could easily give a "blood transfusion" to PayPal if needed. As Oldsmobile struggled, GM could prop it up.

I think it's a risky move. If it succeeds, PayPal will clearly be the dominant payment processor. If it fails though, eBay will almost have to open the doors to a competitor, like Google Wallet.

For sellers, I think it's worse. You won't be able to make a return claim with eBay, but you will with PayPal? This is one key reason why they need to be wed at the hip. You're up to the mercy of the seller, then. Or, you can do what they will, and always side with the buyer. Then, people will get to send the item back for a refund, but they won't be able to leave feedback?

Does anyone win (Other than eBay/PayPal)?

**ScrappinRed** · 11-18-2014, 10:21 PM

I'm curious to see what happens after the split when someone opens a "not as described" claim with BOTH Ebay and Paypal...

**etack** · 11-18-2014, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by ScrappinRed

I'm curious to see what happens after the split when someone opens a "not as described" claim with BOTH Ebay and Paypal...

I was told by ebay that if that happens they will lose both. As you can only do it to one or the other. Also Paypal is much harder to get money out of than ebay.

Eric

**harsas** · 11-18-2014, 11:00 PM

This does not concern me at all. I currently offer returns on everything I sell, including as-is items. I rarely get returns, the worst being on clothing that do not fit. Most folks buy something because they want it, not because they want to check it out. As for the policy, well, if you have tracking that shows delivery, you are covered. If you write a thorough description that calls out all defects and a large set of detailed photos showing every possible part and angle of the item, the buyer would be hard pressed to make a case for "not as described". We did have one person deliberately damage an item they wanted to return once, so it can happen, but it is not common. Just part of doing business, I guess.

Oh, and never make the mistake of thinking that eBay or PayPal care even the slightest about their sellers. They do not. Their focus is completely on the end customer and their satisfaction. EBay believes that, if they have the customers, then the vendors will come...

**Mechanic688** · 11-18-2014, 11:37 PM

For something that's basically the exclusive payment processor for eBay, it should be in the company's "Umbrella". By splitting it off, if PayPal were to fail, eBay itself would be in a bind. I think PayPal will continue to succeed, and if anything, grow. PayPal was already accepting non-eBay payments,

I think it was the Dollar General store I frequent that has a PayPal logo on the credit/debit card terminal. When retail chains start using it as a form of payment then it's gonna grow. I believe that's called "not all your eggs in one basket".

**matador** · 11-19-2014, 12:08 AM

PayPal is fine financially. eBay is what has the eggs together. By offering one payment terminal (Not technically, but still), they're the ones taking the risk. By splitting, they have more tough choices. For example, do they start supporting Google Wallet? On the plus side, they'd gain customers. On the downside, they'd be shooting a loaded gun at PayPal. When they're together, you have more control.

As for the multiple claims, I could see that getting hairy real quickly. As a seller, I'll survive, and won't notice too many changes (Other than smaller growth). But, I'll end up with more work for each transaction.

PayPal will do just fine. I didn't know about the retail stores, but I know that they're the go-to "Social Wallet". They have been for the last couple of years. As for eBay, who knows? They want to be a retail store. Amazon has that covered. eBay needs to try to quit marketing "direct deals on $500 boots", and go back to being a site for smaller merchants. But, they couldn't care less about us. I haven't had any bad returns (yet) on eBay, and I have a 100% feedback rating. I do, though, take a percentage from sales, and keep it set aside for when a bad transaction occurs. At least that amount is less than the cost of a traditional storefront for me.

I shouldn't complain, but I remember the old eBay. I was able to call the seller, and chat about the item. He shipped it, and I mailed him a check. Our packages arrived at about the same time. My best eBay customer (Who I still know today) wanted a specialty laptop (Windows 98 for a legacy program), and I had one still on the store. He called me, and we talked. He ended up buying 4 laptops from me that month, and today still buys components and computers from me. He lives over 2500 miles away from me. That was the beauty of eBay. It was a chance for people to have their own stores, and conduct business how they thought best. I want those days back, but sadly the world isn't the same place anymore.

Back on topic, I think eBay has created a solution for a non-existant problem.

**Metalbestos** · 11-19-2014, 01:10 AM

so first they try to force the sellers into international sales , up the rates and now it's a paradise for scammers and thieves with a 4 month return window . I hope you guys selling on there accurately describe your items and write down product or item numbers to be sure you getting the same item back after they open a case . I have heard to many horror story's from sellers that swap items and return them . I.e. Silver coins . Like has been said ebay always sides with the buyer . So sellers beware ..

I use ebay as a guide to see what people are paying on certain items . Seems to me unless it's a rare or scarce item it's not even worth listing IMHO . I think the return policy is going to scare away a lot of sellers . Best of luck to you that sell on eBay for me I would rather use a buyer on this forum from cpus to vintage items . One mans opinion , I'm done giving any % of my sales to a company that won't protect me . I'm weird like that thou . Like my grandma always said son vote with your dollar . If you don't agree with there business practice don't frequent that place .

**harsas** · 11-19-2014, 09:29 PM

Originally Posted by Metalbestos

so first they try to force the sellers into international sales , up the rates and now it's a paradise for scammers and thieves with a 4 month return window . I hope you guys selling on there accurately describe your items and write down product or item numbers to be sure you getting the same item back after they open a case . I have heard to many horror story's from sellers that swap items and return them . I.e. Silver coins . Like has been said ebay always sides with the buyer . So sellers beware ..

I use ebay as a guide to see what people are paying on certain items . Seems to me unless it's a rare or scarce item it's not even worth listing IMHO . I think the return policy is going to scare away a lot of sellers . Best of luck to you that sell on eBay for me I would rather use a buyer on this forum from cpus to vintage items . One mans opinion , I'm done giving any % of my sales to a company that won't protect me . I'm weird like that thou . Like my grandma always said son vote with your dollar . If you don't agree with there business practice don't frequent that place .

I admire your integrity. There are things I will not do for philosophical reasons as well, but ebay is not one of them. The way I see it, they own the ball field, so they get to make the rules. I will be there as long as I can make money at it and it is definitely possible to make money on ebay. However, they are making it increasingly difficult to make money there so anyone who is a committed online seller would be well advised to look into other places to sell their wares. The time is coming when only very large, high volume companies will be selling there.

**Phantoms001** · 11-20-2014, 01:29 AM

IDK, I use ebay a lot and don't have many problems. I really think it depends on WHAT you are selling.

1. I don't sell things I have a lot of money in.

2. I don't sell things that are worth a lot.

3. I don't sell things I won't be able to just cut the ties and refund the money without receiving the item back.

Most of what I sell is under 100.00 and I have very little in it. I would never sell an I7 laptop, high end phone, ect... which would seem to be items that would have a high potential to attract people willing to defraud you. I just think people don't wake up in the morning deciding I'm going to cheat someone on ebay out of a kitchen faucet.

**matador** · 11-20-2014, 11:55 AM

I have that thought every morning.

I sell computers, though. If somebody returns it, it's no big deal. I can legally reinstall Windows via the recovery partition in about 6 clicks, and put it up again. If they damage the computer or fail to return the disks, eBay will not issue a refund. I had someone try to keep the Windows install disk. They ended up having to pay to send the disk in for a refund.

What concerns me about this is the parts sections, and the As-Is items. According to this policy, someone could buy a lot of "Untested Memory for Gold Removal", and attempt to test the memory. They could send back the non-working items by substituting the sticks removed with more dead sticks.

I don't think many people will go to this trouble, but eBay seems to be very trusting of buyers. If you're going to be trusting of people, you need to likewise trust the sellers.

I deal with eBay as a "necessary evil". I pray that another company (Such as Alibaba) can take some of the steam from eBay. But, if they can't, I'll find a way to adjust and continue. eBay is a major part of my business model. I'll get in bed with eBay. I don't like it, though.

**unknownk** · 11-21-2014, 02:56 AM

I would think most people using Paypal use a credit card, so Ebay has to have its policy inline with VISA & MasterCard. I don't think ebay has anything they can do if Mastercard card gets involved and refunds your money (they are much bigger then Ebay), if you don't have a bank account they can charge there is nothing they can do about a chargeback. Anything collectable and worth money, or things that are status symbols will be stuff people try to screw you out of. The economics are not worth trying to scam you out of $20 items.

**harsas** · 11-21-2014, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by unknownk

I would think most people using Paypal use a credit card, so Ebay has to have its policy inline with VISA & MasterCard. I don't think ebay has anything they can do if Mastercard card gets involved and refunds your money (they are much bigger then Ebay), if you don't have a bank account they can charge there is nothing they can do about a chargeback. Anything collectable and worth money, or things that are status symbols will be stuff people try to screw you out of. The economics are not worth trying to scam you out of $20 items.

PayPal cannot remove money from your bank account without your permission so they cannot force you to refund anything more than you have in your PayPal account. However, they can suspend your account until you make it right, and they will. I also don't agree that most folks use a credit card with PayPal. They have limits and fees if you don't setup a bank account, which I think they do specifically to avoid the chargeback thing. I am not concerned about someone trying to cheat me since they have to return the item complete and in the same condition they receive it. I think the only concern would be someone using something for an extended time and then returning it. If this happens, it will be such a small percentage that I still believe it will be insignificant.

**webuyselltradestuff** · 11-21-2014, 10:38 PM

I make is simple...I offer a NO RETURN policy and am VERY specific in my terms and condition along with my listings. sorry ebay is not "try it and see if you like it"...it's like going to a yard sale...I just don't do it. I had one case come back on something sold for parts (a cell phone)....I won because he took it apart AND because it was sold for parts/nonworking.

I also have dealt with chargebacks from MC/VI in other online businesses...you just have to present a CLEAR set of terms and conditions along with the ad....and make sure to disclose everything you can and cover yourself by being careful with your wording.

I sell quite a bit of cell phones on there and have had little to no issues.

**matador** · 11-21-2014, 11:04 PM

I have to dig out your Returns Policy again, but I remember it from before. A monkey could figure it out. Being that we deal with a lot of them on eBay, that's a good thing.

I don't think many people will go to the trouble. I hope that I'm correct!

**mikeinreco** · 11-21-2014, 11:28 PM

copied and pasted from one of my AS-IS listings.........Short and to the point

I am selling it AS IS

No software, cords, cables, manuals, etc are included

Item in fair to good condition showing normal wear

Parts may be missing or incomplete

AS IS

NO RETURNS/NO REFUNDS NO EXCEPTIONS

BID ACCORDINGLY

**ScrappinRed** · 11-21-2014, 11:58 PM

Even with a clear "no return" policy and selling items "as-is" Ebay allowed a buyer to return 2 separate listings he bought from me because he said I should have taken higher resolution pictures and listed every single scratch, nick, scuff, and mark in the description. I had 12 high resolution photos showing these boards from all sides, and the zoom feature was available on all of them. These were 35 year old boards and clearly sold untested, as-is, no returns.

Not only did Ebay take the money out of my Paypal account as soon as delivery confirmation uploaded, but they allowed him to leave 2 negative feedbacks about me having "deceptive photos with too much flash." I wasn't even given time to inspect the items to make sure they were in the original condition I sent them out in.

So no, it actually doesn't really matter what your policy is, Ebay will give a refund for whatever reason they please. I was on the phone for half an hour with customer service and they said there was nothing they could do. They said if I had included close up photos of the particular discoloration that this fellow was mad about, then I wouldn't have to return them. They didn't care that the lot included 4 boards, and there were clear photos of all areas of the boards that could be enlarged.

These items were returned 3.5 weeks after their purchase. When I start having returns 6 months after a sale, I will definitely be rethinking Ebay...

**Metalbestos** · 11-22-2014, 12:16 AM

,v

Originally Posted by mikeinreco

copied and pasted from one of my AS-IS listings.........Short and to the point

I am selling it AS IS

No software, cords, cables, manuals, etc are included

Item in fair to good condition showing normal wear

Parts may be missing or incomplete

AS IS

NO RETURNS/NO REFUNDS NO EXCEPTIONS

BID ACCORDINGLY

I think that's awesome and should protect you . I just don't like the 180 day return window or the fact that your being forced to adhere to it even with a nice description like the one you have .

If anyone ever uses storage battles they just implemented a brilliant idea to let auctions go past the window if a bid is made within 60 seconds of closing . They sent a email out that said they were trying to make it more like a live auction where buyers would have that last chance to throw a bid out . I replied to that email saying that it was a unfair comparison because live auctions (storage auctions ) don't go on for 7-30 days like their listings do . I took this as a attempt to make more money off their customers . I don't even use the site anymore . I get better deals in person and it saves me the time of having to bid or watch certain units . I'm not saying I haven't done well before or others couldn't now . I just don't agree with company's changing corporate policy in their favor when it directly hurts the foundation that built you , and I believe the change here apples to this.
It's a second slap in the face when they blame it on other factors wether it's a purchase policy standard that a credit card company adheres to or just trying to give the end user a live auction experience . It's a lame excuse to generate more revenue and I see thru it .

PayPal Purchase Protection window will be extended to 180 days starting November 18

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PayPal Purchase Protection window will be extended to 180 days starting November 18

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